Bob Stauffer keeps beating the drum that if everyone knew the Ryan Smyth story, the city would be perfectly unified behind Lowe and the Oilers. He praises the Oilers for not trashing Smyth after he left town. The thing of it is, when a team employee goes on the radio and says this, the team’s kind of having it both ways. Stauffer’s story might be true, it might not be, but a team employee going on the radio and saying that the organization was blameless doesn’t mean a hell of a lot.
In addition, it’s awfully curious that Stauffer is so sure about this when, in the days following the trade, LaForge & Co. were happy to say all sorts of things about Smyth without mentioning something like this. We all know that they were less than forthcoming in painting it as a hockey trade and not about money. I don’t know who Stauffer’s sources are, and they’re obviously good, but he’s not too good or too smart to avoid being used by someone else. Without having the opportunity to evaluate what he says the facts are, I don’t know how anyone can take an Oilers employee seriously when he says that the secret story would prove the Oilers right.
In the days following the Smyth trade it was
“If Smyth’s your best player, you’re not good enough”
I’m not sure who the best Oiler player is now,
But I am positive he’s not good enough.
The funny thing about that line is that
Stauffer & Spec gave it a workout on 1260’s drive home,
and
Tencer, word for word, trotted it out on 630’s post-game.
Neat huh?
Stauffer also hates Smyth. HATES him.
While I agree with your point, this is all just noise, don’t you think?
What matters is Smyth the hockey player. Was he right for the Oilers at that time and at that price?
I’ve yet to here a convincing explanation that he was, at least in terms of the contract on the table and that particular cap hit.
Unless of course he would have signed a 9 million - 6 million - 4 m. - 4 m. - 3 m. - 2 m. - 1 m. - 1 m. - 1 m. - 1 m. - 1 m. - 1 m. - 1 m. deal.
That would have been a stroke of genius, but no one in the NHL had figured out that particular stroke at that point, not even the Wings.
Come on Staples, you don’t think this sort of thing matters? This club asks for our loyalty and our money and lays claim to being an integral part of the community and yet they can’t help themselves. From the Zamboni incident to the bullying to ridiculous situations like this they just embarrass themselves over and over again.
Truly Mickey Mouse.
The Smyth argument always, ALWAYS starts in the wrong place. Ryan Smyth wanted to be signed in the summer of 2006, the year they signed:
June 28: decline the option on Ty Conklin (it was 1.9M).
June 30: decline the option on Todd Harvey.
June 30: sign Pisani (4-year, $10M).
July 1: sign Roloson (3-year, $11M).
July 3: trade Pronger to ANA for Lupul, Smid, picks.
July 4: sign Reasoner (2-year, $1.9M).
July 6: sign Tjarnqvist (1-year, $1.625M).
July 10: acquired Jan Hedja
July 14: signed Hejda.
July 12: signed Horcoff to a 3-year, $12.8M contract.
July 20: sign MacT and Laforge.
July 21: sign Tom Gilbert to a pro contract.
July 22: sign Jarret Stoll to a 2-year, $4.4M contract.
July 25: sign Hemsky to a 6-year, $24.6M contract.
And then in August they signed Sykora. Now, does it look like they were signing their key people? I think it does. Kevin Lowe:
1. didn’t think Ryan Smyth was key people.
2. didn’t think he needed to add more parts on the blue to make up for the loss of Pronger, Tarnstrom and Spacek.
If you want to look at the Ryan Smyth situation, that’s where it turned. Kevin Lowe made his decision in June 2006 on Ryan Smyth.
Yep. After a playoff run where he finished fifth in scoring iirc, just ahead of Spacek and Samsonov. If he finishes further up the line, scores goals like Fernando or pots 2 in G7 then he is signed by Labour Day.
Kevin Lowe is the reason my Ryan Smyth jersey is locked in the closet and he’s going to Hell because of that.
What? Too much?
I think that the evidence points to Kevin Lowe thinking that Smyth’s contract demands were going to go down as the season progressed, rather than up.
Remember, Smyth was coming off the Stanley Cup run in which he was the shot-blocking, ass-on-line-laying wrecking ball that we all know he can be. He was also, for Ryan Smyth, unusually healthy. Lowe probably bet that Smyth wouldn’t do that again, but in fact he had a career-best two thirds of the season, his price went up rather than down, and Lowe had gambled wrong.
I don’t think it was a matter of Lowe wanting to ditch that bum Smitty. It was a simple matter of Lowe thinking that Smyth would come down to a reasonable value, and his performance ended up putting him up to a stratospheric one.
Quain - I still rock the Smyth jersey in public.
It’s not about where he is now, it’s simply who he was to the Oilers: rock solid heart-and-soul.
That would have been a stroke of genius, but no one in the NHL had figured out that particular stroke at that point,
except for the New York Islanders. Poor bastards.
Anyway, on point. The Oilers are fools for not getting the Smyth deal done in the summer of 2006 as LT says. It’s surprising to me that this isn’t universally agreed upon. There are folks who believe that the problems with this team are related to chemistry, heart, and effort. Smyth helps there. There are others who think the problems with this team are related to having too few good players. Smyth helps there too.
Lowetide always tells this story exactly right.
…and on that note: this sport of hockey is a business, is it not? A pretty lucrative one in fact for the Oilers, who have a massive fanbase for a “smalltown” team. As an entertainment business, why would you trade away your most valuable asset? I’m not talking about quality of play here, I’m talking strictly popularity-wise.
It is a poor business move to lose your most popular asset.
@Scott. The issue with Smyth was never chemistry, heart and effort.
It was cap hit for an injury prone player heading into his non-peak years. . .
How do you address that issue?
Of course, as I said, a Franzen contract would have addressed it just fine, but no one had thought up the Franzen contract, as far as I know . . .
As for when it started, yes, Smyth made it clear in the summer of 06 he was taking no more hometown discounts, and then negotiations continued and a deal was very close to being signed right up until the end.
How do you address that issue?
Sign Sheldon Souray?
Smyth at 6.25 million cap hit over five years? No thanks.
Smyth at a 5 million cap hit over five years, i.e. the amount they could have probably had him for in July 2006? Very much acceptable, yes please!
How do you address that issue?
Sign Sheldon Souray?
Or lay it all out for Michael Nylander?
If you look strictly at the deadline and ignore the previous 9-10 months, then the decision to move Smyth is debatable. Although it would be nice to have gotten a single decent piece out of the deal.
However, as Lowetide and others have said, if you consider how the Oilers handled Smyth as a hockey asset then it can only be considered as total incompetence.
David Staples said…
As for when it started, yes, Smyth made it clear in the summer of 06 he was taking no more hometown discounts…
David, you are the investigative journalist - please find me a quote from the summer of 06 when Smyth says something about his extension and hometown discounts.
Or don’t bother, because you won’t find it. The quote is from Nov 2006 after Staios’ extension. When you consider the impact the timeline had on the situation, that’s an important thing to get wrong in this issue.
RiversQ, you’re the numbers guy, please find me one time when Smyth actually took a home-town discount!
He was always very well compensated in his time as an Oiler, including holding out once as a restricted free agent for his extra slice of the pie. Nothing in the world wrong with that, but let’s not build him up too much here.
RiversQ, I accept that the quote won’t be there from summer, but evidence is clear; as you point out he said it in November, a few months after summer, and he was certainly no pushover in February negotations. He was looking for a payday. Nothing wrong with that.
Could the Oilers have had him more cheaply in the summer of ‘06?
This is the assertion I’m reading, but there’s zero evidence for it, whereas there is some amount of evidence for my assertion that this was a player not keen to settle for anything less than full value.
My real point, though, which I now make for the third time — what is the argument to pay Ryan Smyth peak value dollars in years 31-36, where he’s not going to be a peak player, and there’s a very real risk he will just fall of the cliff in terms of production (based on how similar players — aggressive, high intensity scoring forwards — tend to do).
You can make the same argument with Souray and Nylander, given their respective ages and injury histories, that the risk was far too high to make such high bids on such players. The same goes with Visnovsky, to a lesser extent, as his type of skill player tends to age a bit better.
With Smyth, the cap hit — as these contracts were constructed — would be high but accepatble, even for him at peak production. But what about a broken down Smyth, missing big chunks of time many years?
The only out would be sending him to the minors, so you just eat that $5.5 million a year.
It’s not my money, it’s not your money, so let’s just spend it, and if they’re too cheap to spend it, they suck . . . Is that the argument?
The Oilers needed a total rebuild after Pronger left, one done around 18-28 year old players on reasonable contracts, not guys in their 30s. Both MacTavish and — after the Smyth thing blew up on him big time — Lowe, didn’t want that.
I admit, I’m as late as many others are to that line of thinking, but I still think it was the Oilers best bet . . . unless, of course, Lowe had figured out before any others the beauty of the Franzen contract and had signed Smyth, Souray, Cole, Staios, Horcoff and perhaps others, to Franzen deals. That might have worked too (but only if you had the right, gambling, big-spending owner).
So here we are. . .
One question — does anyone know if you can pay money and buy another team’s first pick?
Because the thought of sending a package of players and cash to Tampa Bay, a team hungry for cash, is appealing?
(Yes, I love to think up ways of spending Katz’s money).
Is Stauffer still talking about this or has he spoken about it in the last couple of days?
I’m sure the pay’s better but I had a lot more time for Stauffer as MacT critic than yet another defender of the faith.
@Dennis: He brings it up whenever Smyth is mentioned.
@David: No, you aren’t allowed to do that. That was the stink around what the Leafs did in trading for TB’s fourth, which the NHL subsequently stripped in a completely unrelated decision.
What I find ironic about this situation is how many players Lowe signed to over inflated contracts because they had career years on the cup run and yet he gets away with saying he didn’t want to sign Smyth to an inflated contract.
Lowe chose Penner over Smyth, plain and simple.
Take Penners contract and add any second guy you like and you end up paying for Smyth. Heck, just count the contracts for the guys they traded Smyth for.
Lowe traded the heart of the team away, a guy that didn’t play on the original dynasty, he wasn’t a boy on the bus. He was from the 90’s and the one single good thing to come out of that time.
He is the Oilers 5th all time leading goal scorer, only behind Gretzky, Kurri, Messier and Anderson, he finished ahead of Coffey. No one will finish ahead of him in our lifetimes.
He was the only guy in the top 7 to have played on his own, the rest played with each other.
He completed the first line. He made Hemsky and Horcoff better. No one has fit on the line ever since.
He led the team in power play goals for the most seasons. Now our power play sucks.
He broke two of Gretzky’s records, not many folks can say that.
And Lowe has the guts to say that he traded him away because of a salary dispute of $100,000?
The night Smyth broke all his teeth, bent over picked them up and then came back to win the game paid that 100 thousand easily.
His 59 points from this year would have put him second only behind Hemsky, and that was playing on a terrible team.
Part of the team died after they traded him. And every trade after that killed it a little bit more. Lowe traded so many hard working journeyman for “prospects” that for the most part don’t have a work ethic.
And we have sucked ever since the day he left.
@David: No, you aren’t allowed to do that. That was the stink around what the Leafs did in trading for TB’s fourth, which the NHL subsequently stripped in a completely unrelated decision.
Considering how that panned out, I’d argue that indication are you are allowed to do that.
RiversQ, you’re the numbers guy, please find me one time when Smyth actually took a home-town discount!
He was always very well compensated in his time as an Oiler, including holding out once as a restricted free agent for his extra slice of the pie. Nothing in the world wrong with that, but let’s not build him up too much here.
LB, none of that is relevant. The point is that Lowe had more money and Smyth was going to be undeniably cheaper in Summer 2006. The only way Smyth’s price could have gone down over the course of 06/07 would be if he missed 35+ games. That’s a pretty crazy bet to make, even for Lowe, given Smyth’s overblown injury history.
I tend to agree with LT - the Oilers decided Pisani, Moreau and Staios were more key than Smyth. That is indefensible. (OK, maybe Staples would try because I’m not sure he’s even arguing in good faith on this issue anymore.)
As for Stauffer, I suspect his hole card is something like Smyth/Meehan telling the Oilers “This isn’t a negotiation, you chose to extend Moreau and Staios before me, so if you don’t meet my price right now I’m going to the highest bidder.”
The problem with that, is it doesn’t absolve Lowe or the Oilers in any way because the damage was done long before the deadline of 2007.
RivQ, when you challenge a guy to prove that Smyth had announced he wouldn’t take a hometown discount in the summer, I’d think that whether he’d ever taken a hometown discount before would be a relevant factor.
And I still haven’t heard anything to counter my idea that Lowe just thought Smyth’s price was going down rather than up. In short, that he was an idiot on Smyth’s coming season rather than on his value to the team.
Does that absolve Lowe? Of course not. But I think the venom directed at a guy who, after all, pimped Smyth for the Olympic team in 2006 and gave an interview saying that if only he’d known how expensive LWs would be, he’d have kept Smyth after all is sometimes a bit over the top.
@Lord Bob: So your explanation is that Lowe bungled the whole thing but that the venom directed at him is excessive?
@mc79: I think it’s excessive because gambling and losing is a lesser hockey sin than thinking Ryan Smyth is a glorified fourth-liner or whatever Lowe’s supposed to think he is.
If Lowe thought that it seems apparent that he would’ve given Smyth 150% of his market value on July 1st.
RiversQ. Well, I’m not just trying to win a point or conjecture. I’m trying to figure out what the hell was the best plan for the Oilers to rebuild after Pronger left, after their one real, true difference maker left.
Smyth was not that. He was a good player, but he couldn’t raise all the boats around him, even at his peak.
All I hear is that the Oil should have kept Smyth, a sure recipe for more mediocrity. My argument is Lowe was on the right track at first in letting go an older guy like Smyth, but he lost the plot after that.
But I’m not hearing from others any real plot line that leads to success and includes the signing of Smyth on that contract.
I’m hearing strong sentiment from fans who loved this player. That’s OK. I’m a fan, too. I get that kind of thing.
But the idea of building around an aging Ryan Smyth is not any better than the various ideas that Lowe has had, and I’ve never understood why so many smart hockey fans keep putting it out there.
So I’m asking them to make that argument, but I’ve heard nothing convincing.
P.S. Maybe Lowe decided in July 2006 he wanted Smyth, but not at the asking price. I see little or no evidence that Smyth could have been signed to a bargain deal that summer.
In retrospect — knowing that the economy didn’t take in the fall of 2006 and that Smyth had a good year 2006-07 — it’s clear he would have been cheaper then.
The evidence, what little we have, also shows he was looking to drive a hard bargain, which might well have meant unless he got exactly what he wanted from the Oil, he was going the free agency route.
It’s mind-reading to assume Smyth was ready to take a discount deal in July 2006, and it’s mind-reading to assume Lowe didn’t want Smyth that summer of 2006, and I don’t have that skill.
@David - the Red Wings didn’t invent the contract Franzen was signed to. Look at how Kipper’s contract is structured.
Schitzo. Yes, I know there have been variations on this deal in the past, with maybe one year at low cost tacked on at the end. Wasn’t the Briere deal the first of this kind. But there was some expectation, I would argue, that Briere/Kipper would actually be playing that final year.
The Franzen deal is so bold as to be groundbreaking. No way he’s still playing past age 37 or so. All those extra years tacked on, just to subvert the cap. I am full of admiration for the Red Wings bosses, and wish various Oil deals, including one for Ryan Smyth, had been structured in that manner. But no one was so bold or creative back in the day, were they?
If anyone suggested a Franzen deal for Smyth, please shout out your name (and provide the link).
Dunno about Briere, but there’s not much doubt the Kipper’s contract was structured with the idea in mind that he might retire before the last year or even two. Or alternatively, if he’s lousy (theoretically!) they can waive him and pay only $5M and $1.5M those two years while losing a $5.83M cap hit in both.
An slight aside/clarification: the benefit of the structure of the Franzen/Kipper style contract is NOT, as is often reported, so the late buyout becomes attractive. The cap implications of buying out these contracts later on is actually horrendous, especially in the last cheapest years. The benefit is that you can waive/cut/ditch the guy and lose his whole cap hit while paying him a fraction of it.
Matt: Agreed on your take on the benefits of the Franzen deal (a far more aggressive version of the Kipper deal, so I put it in a different class, though the idea is indeed the same one).
And, of course, a buy-out is not an option on such a deal. . . . Do you see any obvious downsides in such deals? (Other than the player might chose to go to the minors and collect a few more millions over a few more years when he’s no longer an NHLer . . . But that’s just a money hit for the owners, not a cap hit for the big team).
Guys, guys…you’re all wrong.
The reason Ryan Smyth wasn’t signed was because Kevin Lowe didn’t know the cap was going up!
If I only knew that the cap was going up, I may have held onto Ryan Smyth.
- Kevin Lowe, July 2007
Reading through the achieves is amazing stuff,.
http://www2.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/sports/story.html?id=84ec9ee5-b49a-41de-bc66-cf2c01e61f1d&p=1
A frustrated Lowe says the Oilers are thinking of hiring a “concierge” to look after player needs in the future, but he can’t understand why free agents won’t sign here.
“I wasn’t trying to spend the money for a bunch of over-the-hill guys, guys looking to grab one more paycheque,” said Lowe, who had a game plan. “It wasn’t like we didn’t want to spend the money. It’s the first time we’ve ever been in the high-end market. We’re in the win-now mode … we really are, but it didn’t work (free agency).”
“Now we’ve got a different budget and a different salary cap (up from $44 million last year to $50.3 million this season),” said Lowe, admitting he hadn’t read the tea leaves well enough to know how high it would jump. If he’d known in February what he knows now, he said Smyth probably wouldn’t have gotten away.
RiversQ: Here’s the article of Smyth stating he wanted FMV.
http://punjabsoil.blogspot.com/2008/02/smyth-wanted-long-term-deal-in-summer.html
That’s where I think Lowe honestly fucked up. Smyth should have been signed to a long term contract after the lock-out ended; instead he was only signed for two years.
Smyth. Glencross. Moreau. Pisani (who was asking for 1.1M in January 2006). Hejda. Sykora (not traded on deadline day when guys like Nagy were yielding a first). Marchant (poor asset management). There’s no shortage of Kevin Lowe’s blunders.
Great stuff, PunjabiOil. It’s a fair comment to say Lowe missed a real chance to sign Smyth to a four or five year deal at what later would have been seen as a reasonable salary at that point, August 2005, with Pronger in the fold. This is also evidence of some hesitation in regards to this particular player being paid a lot.
Smyth’s contract would be up right now or next year, if Lowe had moved then.