I’m quite enjoying the game threads at Lowetide’s site. They’ve gotten relatively sizeable and they don’t have the moron quotient that plagues the game threads at some of your other hockey related sites. Plus, they are frequently funny to the point that they induce actual laughter. There was a comment there the other day from a fellow posting under the name of Phil that caught my eye and I thought warranted something further over here:
After they lose tonight, the Oilers will have 30 points in 30 games - that’s 3 points ahead of last year. The fan in me wants to think that there’s still hope for better days, but the realist in me looks at these 30 games (and throw in all 7 preseason games) and sees a team that either doesn’t have the talent to be competitive, doesn’t have the coaching to make them competitive, or both.
This team is (approximately) a million times better than the disastrous squad that the Oilers iced for the first 30 last year. As Phil notes, at 14-14-2, the Oilers were only three points ahead of last year’s 13-16-1 record through 30 games. It’s the underlying numbers that really tell the story though and should give us hope that they’re good enough that, with the benefit of a run of some sort, they might be able to slide into the playoffs. Whereupon they’ll promptly be slaughtered in five, but still: ’tis better to have rioted on Whyte Avenue once in the springtime and lost, than to never have rioted at all.
Through their first thirty at evens last year, the Oil were getting absolutely crushed in terms of shots by a margin of 698-582. This year, they’re much closer to par, with the Oilers having been outshot 701-645. They’ve probably actually improved by more than the numbers suggest - we know that teams do better in terms of ES SF/SA at home than they do on the road. The Oilers played 16 of their first 30 at home last year, as opposed to 11 of their first 30 at home this year. When you look at the home road splits, you see that their ratio of SF/SA at home last year was .96; this year it’s 1.01. Their ratio of SF/SA on the road last year through their first thirty games was .70; this year it’s .87. There is considerable evidence of improvement, at home and particularly on the road, in terms of getting pucks at the net at even strength.
As you’d expect, it’s showing up in their ES GF and GA as well. Through 30 games last year, they were getting outscored 63-50. This year, they’re outscoring the opposition 51-50 at evens. The percentages are slightly more favourable this year - they had an 8.9% ES shooting percentage through 30 last year against a 7.9% ES shooting percentage this year but the ES save percentage is up by .014 this year, from .915 to .929. I suspect that they’re not yet a plus ES team on merit but they’re a heck of a lot closer to being one now than they were last year. The improvement in terms of ES goal differential, from -7 to +1, is being driven mostly by the improved shot spread. I figure it’s worth about 5 of the 8 goal differential, with the rest coming from the changes in the percentages. That’s a heck of a change just on the outshooting - I’ve always figured that an extra five or six goal differential will buy you a win in the standings.
What about MacT’s bete noir, the PP? It’s well ahead of last year too. Last year’s power play was, as we’re all aware, a nightmare early on in the season. Through thirty games, the Oilers were roaring along at a 39.5 PPS/60 clip (horrible), scoring 4.0 PPG/60 (horrible) on 10.0% shooting (do I need to say it?). This year’s PP, through thirty games, is taking 43.0 PPS/60 (slightly less horrible), scoring 7.5 PPG/60 (respectable) and shooting 17.7% (maybe a bit higher than sustainable, but we’ve now seen about 70 games of the Oilers shooting around 18% on the PP; I’d believe that that’s too high for the long run but they seem to be a better than average team in terms of finishing on the PP, which makes sense because Souray seems to put it in the 1 time out of 10 that he hits the net and the other play is that cross-ice one to Horcoff that he generally puts in if he gets good wood on it). All things being considered though, even if you have concerns about whether the PP is going to keep rolling, I don’t know that you can tag the PP with the problems of this season.
How about the PK? Well, there’s the trouble. The Oilers have been a pretty good PK team since the lockout. They’ve been 8th, 8th and 5th since the lockout in terms of killing penalties. This year, they’re 29th and a long way from anything respectable. I can’t recall another MacT Oiler team that’s been this bad. MacT has had some teams with some bad PK units - the 2003-04 Oilers finished 27th on the PP - but nothing this bad. At least the 03-04 Oilers were pretty tightly bunched - although they finished 27th on the PP, the difference.
Last year, they were giving up 47.0 PPS/60 thorugh 30 (not bad), with an .880 save percentage (very good) and allowing 5.6 PPG/60 (very good). This was the only aspect of their game that was in the least bit good. This year though, it’s completely reversed - every aspect of the PK has been absolutely horrible. As I assume most people know, .865ish is about average for the PK in terms of save percentage. The Oilers put up an .850 through 30 games. I can’t bring myself to get that worked up about that and assume that, with time, it will take care of itself. It’s certainly been part of the problem to date; I just don’t quite know that it’s worth worrying about the save percentage moving forward.
The SA is a different story. The Oilers gave up 60.5 PPS/60 through their first 30 games. This is more than a little strange because the Oilers haven’t been anywhere near this bad in the four years for which we have numbers - they’ve reached from spectacular to averageish but never been bad, let alone Chernobylesque, like they are this season. We have numbers going back to 2003-04, so I’ve assembled them in a chart, just to give a sense of the scale and a sense of how bad 60.5 PPSA/60 is:
As you can see, the usual lower limit of bad has been about 55 PPS/60. Only three teams in the past four years have posted numbers that are significantly worse than that limit. I haven’t got this year’s numbers for the league as a whole but I’ve eyeballed Desjardins’ numbers for this year and it looks like, notwithstanding the rule changes, anything worse than 55.0 PPS/60 is still terribly bad.
What are the causes of all this? Well, there would seem to be a couple of options that could be pursued. Dennis has been on about the lack of down-ice pressure and the bizarre rotation of PK personnel employed by MacT. The Oilers lost Jarret Stoll and Marty Reasoner over the course of the summer. The new rule about the first faceoff on the PK being in the shorthanded team’s zone would seem to hurt everyone equally on the surface but maybe there’s a disproportionate impact on the Oilers, as a result of the fact that they were accustomed to penalty skills starting in the offensive zone after Ethan Moreau slashed someone 200 feet from the Oilers net. Longtim HF poster dawgbone, who has his own blog now, has some ideas worth reading as well. I’ll confess that I don’t know exactly what the problem might be, and I don’t have particularly strong opinions one way or the other about what it might be, but more than anything else, this is something that they’re going to have to fix.
One thing that strikes me though is that the trend entering this season seemed to be going the wrong way. I’ve seen some suggestion that Kelly Buchberger might be at fault for all of this. I don’t really know what, if any, Bucky’s responsibilities are but, given that the PK has been trending the wrong way for two years now, I’d be very hesitant to cast blame in his direction for this. At the very least, I tend to think that there are other causes at work. This definitely needs a post of its own - at the very least, I can see personnel and blocked/missed shots being interesting to look at.
Going back to the big picture, as it turns out, the Oilers are somewhat ahead this year - looking strictly at GF and GA, they were outscored 86-67 through 30 last year; this year through thirty they were being outscored 90-77. Last year’s schedule started out a lot more favourably in terms of the home road split too - 16 games at home to 12 this year. You can, I think, argue that there’s been some improvement there. They’re being undone by something different this year, something that, to me at least, seems more readily fixable.
The volume of SO points also makes last year a little bit difficult to use as a yardstick for this year’s performance. I wrote a post last year at about this time dealing with the shootout volume, although the Oilers were a little further through their schedule, having played 34 games. At that time, they were 6-15-1 in games that ended in regulation and 11-1 in games that went to a shootout or OT, including 10-1 in the shootout. I hate to say I told you so, but they just were not as good as their record suggested. They’re paying for it this year, with real improvement not being as evident as it might otherwise be.
None of this is to say that this current team is doomed. MacT et al. have demonstrated in the past that they can ice a good PK and I have some faith that they’ll figure out some sort of a solution. I think that there’s a good to strong case to be made that it’s the best Oilers team we’ve seen since the team that went to the Finals. I don’t think that they’re a realistic contender for the division title at this stage in the development of the current edition but, with some breaks, the playoffs are within reach.
They’re probably still not quite there on merit but, unless you truly believe that playing 8 SO games in the first 30 of last season, and going 7-1, was a reflection of some sort of skill that the team has lost, there’s been real improvement in Edmonton when the first 30 games from last year are compared with the first 30 games from this year. The general lack of gruntlement is probably due to a large portion of the fanbase having bought into last year’s results and mentally adding on a year of improvement. The improvement is, I think, there, but the foundation wasn’t nearly as far along as it appeared from a glance at the standings.
* * *
A related aside - there was a great quote from Captain Stick Penalty in the Offensive Zone himself in a recent Robert Tychkowski article:
Moreau compares this team to the one that was so frustratingly below average for most of 2005-06, before pulling it together late and embarking on the Stanley Cup final run.
“We were in a similar position to what we’re in now,” he said.
“We have good players, we have some depth at pretty much every position. We still have things to figure out, we’re still experimenting with lines and our special teams have to get better, but you don’t really think about (a big trade) when you have the pieces.”
Sometimes Moreau says some insightful stuff, sometimes he says stuff (”Stortini is a player” or something like that in 2007) that makes me wonder if he’s watching the same game I am. The way it’s written makes me wonder about how this comment came about, ie. whether there’s a writer who has a pet theory that this Oilers team resembles the 2005-06 Oilers and Moreau was just agreeing for the sake of giving the guy his angle and making the interview stop but it’s a bizarre idea. Here’s the numbers for the first 30 games in the past five seasons for the Oilers. I’m not sure that the empty netters are screened out of the 2003-04 numbers - someone else built that database - but I think that you get the idea:
It’s interesting how the results in every area of the game have ranged from awesome to terrible. I don’t really buy into the argument that the coach has been tuned out and, if he has, you’d think that he’d be tuned out in all areas of the game, not just (for example) on the PK. Strange.
Worth noting: the Oilers played 16 of their first 30 at home in 2003-04, 2006-07 and 2007-08. In 2005-06 and this year, they played 12 of their first 30 at home. I think I’ve demonstrated that that will have some effect on your ES numbers - 05-06 and this season probably suggest stronger teams than the raw numbers indicate.
I’m not really feeling the comparison between the 05-06 Oilers and the current edition. The current edition might have the better PP but, other than that, the two teams don’t look particularly comparable to me. The 2005-06 team were rockstars on the PK - the current team not so much. The comparison after 30 flatters this bunch too, because as you can tell from above, the Oilers went on a ridiculous PK run in terms of shot prevention shortly thereafter. Although this team is slightly ahead of the 05-06 team in terms of GD at ES, the 2005-06 team was spending more time in the right end of the ice. In short, the problems of the 2005-06 Oilers seemed a hell of a lot more fixable in the short term than do the problems of this current team. This team isn’t necessarily a bad one but that team was pretty good.
I said in the pre-season that this team could greatly improve and not not see any signifigant gains in the standing. Mostly because of last year’s unsustainable and random success in the shoot-out, aswell as a final quarter propelled by a lot of shot luck. I was told then that my opinions are derived too much from spread sheets and that I should “watch the games”.
Vindication?
I know, I know. Some of us who were skeptical of the results at the tail end of last season were just being dicks and put too much faith in the math and not enough belief in the scorching fire wagon brand of hockey the Oilers were finally playing; the kind of hockey that can’t be described or encapsulated by statistics.
Now the white noise is lamenting how bad the Oilers suck while I’m wholly optimistic that a veteran or two and a reimagining (maybe not a word) of the PK could see this team sneak into a playoff position. Then there is another faction that believes that somewhere within this team is the 80’s Oilers reincarnate and they just require someone behind the bench to give them the verbal go ahead to blaze toward 7-1 victories on a nightly basis.
Plus, they are frequently funny to the point that they induce actual laughter.
Absolutely. One of the recent game threads (which I can’t find with a brief search) had someone say ~, “I’d take a healthy Peter Forsberg on my first line in any era”, to which (I believe) Lord Bob replied, “And I’ll take a sober Doug Harvey and a unicorn.”
Then somebody else put together a 1st All-Star team, including 10-foot-tall Gretzky. It was gutbusting.
I read Jones piece today about how Lowe better not sleep in on Dec 27th and all I could think about was how much more improved we’d be if we could just add two guys to the bottom six. Of course one of them needs to be a guy who can win the faceoffs but the other just has to be a fast and gritty guy who gets in the way. Jones wants size or goal scoring but I’ll stick with the math and believe that both 26-89 will start to get things done as the season comes along.
The PK shouldn’t be too hard to fix though. I keep going back to how Boyd Devereaux played the first season with TO and why not take a stab at him? Wouldn’t it also stand to reason that somewhere in the AHL there’s a guy who’s money on faceoffs but he’s being blocked in his parent org for some reason. It seems that the Oil just think things will magically reverse even though they have begun to pressure down-ice these last two games. The other thing is can you look into shot-blocking on the PK, Ty? There seems to have been a change in approach where hardly anyone bothers to block a shot and that’s not the way I remember things.
The things that have really frustrated me this season:
- the treatment of Garon.
- the approach of the PK
- ineffective home play.
The current edition might have the better PP but, other than that, the two teams don’t look particularly comparable to me. The 2005-06 team were rockstars on the PK - the current team not so much.
Umm, Tyler - I’m a little confused. Going by your chart above:
2005-06: 52/54 EV, 31/0 PP, 4/33 PK
2008-09: 51/50 EV, 26/0 PP, 0/33 PK
Those are pretty similar numbers. Now, I don’t buy that the two teams are that similar, mostly because the goaltending this year hasn’t been bad (Garon excepted) whereas 2005-06 was largely a goaltending problem. In any case, though, don’t your numbers disagree with your point?
@Jonathan: I’m looking at the SF/SA at ES and the GA/60 on the PK. Sure, this year’s team has allowed 33 PPG - the problem is that they’ve done it in about 77% of the minutes and the problems seem to be broader than just “Goalies who can’t stop anything”.
@Tyler - I follow now; I was looking at total goal differential but wasn’t allowing for the different TOI.
But sometimes the other teams just make their shots, Tyler. To a large extent, that’s what happened in 05/06.
I mean until the score got out of hand, the Oilers were pretty close, in terms of carrying the play, against Chicago.
I remember watching the CBJ game, the one just after the game in DET, and everything the Oilers put on net with their head down went top corner or bounced off a leg. And their rebounds came to them and the Jackets rebounds went through legs to a safe place. Just one of those nights.
I remember thinking “fuck, they’re going to need to save some of this luck for a close game that they need”. And I checked Dennis’ scoring chances a week or two later and he had CBJ with a huge edge. I’m sure he was right, because that’s what happened on the ice.
I genuinely don’t know why every fucker that calls Gregor or posts on Lowetide can’t just accept the game for what it was, I mean we all saw it. Why does the score have to be projected back onto the game and the entire freaking thing revised in hindsight?
BTW, does anyone have a link to a Hitchcock postgame podcast for the aforementioned game?
And because the other post is too far down…
There was a post by a guy called “fighting corsi” that was genuinely funny, very good stuff.
Thing is, and I say this knowing that he didn’t mean there to be anything in it, and knowing that I will be mocked … there really is truth in that. And I think that folks like slipper and Dennis will attest to this. Bear in mind that we’re oldies, sensibilities were different not that long ago. We’re not animals.
I got in a fight with a guy when I was 17 or 18. Cat was evil, I know that, don’t remember why though. I beat the hell out of him but left no serious marks, just the way it happened. His one lucky punch to my head, which I never even felt through the adrenaline at the time, that left a technicolour bruise all over the side of my face. So the girls think you lost the scrap. Oh, the indignity.
And as an aside, though I’d hope to God it was obvious: No fighter fears getting hit, they fear being seen to lose the fight, or worse, being made a fool of.
And the other side of the coin. When I was about 21, I was pearl harboured outside a nightclub in Calgary, by this guy from university. I knew him to say hi, but never had any idea that he hated me. Apparently he did.
He was a strong guy, he picked me up from behind by the knees, out of the blue, I was just walking along talking to friends. And he swung me around and my head either hit the pavement or clipped the wall of a building, in any case I went out. I have a bit of a soft head anyways.
A bit later, walking down the street, and the dude comes out of the darkness like a maniac at me, I’m still in a fog and just put my arms up instinctively to protect myself. Dumbass (turns out he was a devout Christian and hadn’t drank much before, but he was loaded on this night) manages to seriously hurt himself while beating me up. Seriously, he dislocates his shoulder while punching me, also he must have taken part of me to his torso when he tackled me, and he starts puking.
Now afterwards there may or may not have been the singing of Bringing In The Sheaves, fuckers of their own mothers may or may not have been forced to squeal like a pig while their friends walked away pretending they hadn’t seen a thing. And an oddly calm cat named Brad may or may not have walked in to a public washroom and convinced the righteous to not curb Jesus-boy on a urinal.
So yeah, the best fighter doesn’t always win the fight. Shit happens. And hockey is a beautiful game because it tests you. And all the little stuff, it matters a lot, it just takes it a while for it to shake down to results, though I’d like to pretend that this corner of the internet sees that anyways.
re: Lowetide’s game day threads:
“they don’t have the moron quotient that plagues the game threads at some of your other hockey related sites”
Though I don’t read any of them very often, at this point they are slightly worse than Oilfans I think. About the same as HF. Probably still a touch better than EdmontonOilers.com. Though I’m sure that hundreds of readers from each of those sites would laugh aloud at the notion others were better.
Lowetide is a cool guy, but his site has horrible comments content now. It reminds me of your stint at TheScore blog.
I just hope that the fucknards (and Lowetide draws them like a magnet) stay over there. I wouldn’t bet that will happen, but I can hope.
You’re an interesting guy Vic.
You’re not interesting at all, Mclea. Please leave.
Vic - and please don’t take this the wrong way - you’re pretty much the testiest guy in these quarters, and it’s fun to watch. I just try and stay out of the way, because I’m one of those guys that knows he’s on the right track, but can identify someone who’s been walking down the right track for a while longer and consequently has a better idea of where it goes.
Anyways, in answer to your earlier question - it’s because people are lazy. Three weeks after the fact, if I look back at two games and see a 2-1 win and a 3-2 loss, I’m going to assume the team played better in the win, even if that doesn’t match the facts. If I take the time to look back at what actually happened I’ll come out of it, but most people don’t take the time. It’s the same as guys who use points as the definitive measure of offensive prowess - it’s lots easier to say “X has 50 points” than to look at the situations and get a feel for what’s actually going on.
Though I don’t read any of them very often, at this point they are slightly worse than Oilfans I think. About the same as HF. Probably still a touch better than EdmontonOilers.com.
C’mon. Obviously the noise traffic over at LT’s has risen because he’s a good writer and everything, but “worse than Oilfans”?
Jesus, that’s mean. Even for you, Vic;)
I can’t recall anyone over at OF, outside of Rivers or Tyler, quantifying their arguments. Atleast 2 or 3 out of 10 commenters at LT’s get into it and try to actually support their side of the conversation using all the tools the ‘nerd provides us.
The guys at Oilers Nation whine that everyone at LT’s has a holier than though attitude… Just because people don’t need some douche bag repeating every five minutes how MacT need to be fired or Horcoff need to be traded. So in some cases people do get the message.
Obviously one shouldn’t click on a gameday thread if they’re interested in a highbrow conversation about corsi, scoring chances and Pearson correlation- those thread are fucking gonzo. There’s is some funny stuff in there, though. And these days atleast 2 out of 5 people calling for someone to be traded or fired are trying to be ironic. That’s progress, right?
I agree with slipper. Also: Matt’s point about Lord Bob’s “I’ll take a sober Doug Harvey and a unicorn” is top fucking notch.
Admittedly I only have a quick cruise through once in a while, slipper, and don’t read anything close to all of the posts. But it just seems so fucking nuts. I read the better part of one from a few games ago, and I guess the lesson is that for Oiler players, the line between hero and asshole is very fine indeed.
There is an air of madness in there, one that has sweet FA to what is actually going on in the game and a whole lot to do with the score on the clock. And we both know that sometimes that’s fair, and a whole hell of a lot of the time it isn’t.
I don’t know man, there are cool guys who post in those threads, so it’s tempting to have a whip through a day after the fact and cherrypick that 10%. But damn, just seems like too much effort.
I mean I don’t care, I just hope it doesn’t spread.
The improvement in terms of ES goal differential, from -7 to +1, is being driven mostly by the improved shot spread.
Just a minor number check: based on what you wrote a sentence or two earlier, wouldn’t it be -13 to +1?
The pattern of SO games is odd: in ‘06 (16) and ‘08 (19) they played a metric asston of SOs, but in ‘07 (6) and so far in ‘09 (4), they’ve barely played any. It’d be interesting to see if the good, bad, or mediocre regulation-time teams generally had more shootouts, but at least from the Oilers’ data, there’s not much to say one way or the other. Makes me wonder if the occurrence of shootouts is random, as has largely been assumed around these parts, but the result is still related to skill (i.e. it’s not a coin flip). Don’t know if there’s enough empirical data to support that notion yet, or even if there can be on a year-to-year basis, but I remember your model from last year, which at least suggests there’s a skill component at sufficiently large samples.
Vic: How is it possible that someone who is wrong as often as you are can have a ego as big as yours.
Your selling snake oil. You’re a fucking fraud if you think your predicting the future.
Don’t worry about it Vic. It’s not your fault that only a minimal amount of people give a fuck about your gimmicks. It’s LT’s fault.
18.37% = getting one punched. Stay down.
See, Traktor? It’s shit like this that’s the reason why Vic assumes anyone who disagrees with him is dumber than a sack of bricks.
I can’t even tell who you’re agreeing with here Doogie.
@Doogie - You’re right, I ran the script wrong, wrote a para and then forgot to fix it.
Makes me wonder if the occurrence of shootouts is random, as has largely been assumed around these parts, but the result is still related to skill (i.e. it’s not a coin flip).
This is about where I am with the shootout. It’s a weighted coin flip once you’re in it, I think, but still a coin flip.
MC and Jonathan: Sorry for the indirect jab.
I just don’t see the need to pick at LT and his readers. Vic summoned a jerk response and he got one.
I just find it funny how someone who talks all the time about all the different guys he fought growing up still thinks everyone else is the problem.
Sounds like he had that head off the pavement coming.
It’s a weighted coin flip once you’re in it, I think, but still a coin flip.
Given sample size concerns, I’m beginning to agree that that’s the most logical way to look at it. On any given night, Team A should win over Team B, because they have better shooters/goalie/whatever, but in three shots, anything can happen.
I can’t even tell who you’re agreeing with here Doogie.
I assume he’s on one of his hobby horses about Cogliano’s shooting percentage. Even if he’s proven right, and Cogliano is the Mario Lemieux of only getting 100 shots a year, there’s no real need to be a dick about it, any more than there’s need for Vic to be talking about “cleansing” like some sort of blogosphere Milosevic. (That being said, I snickered at Traktor’s last comment. I’ve learned not to stick a thumb in Vic’s eye, because it accomplishes nothing except elevating everyone’s blood pressures, but it was still funny.)
Just for the record, there are actually a few players who have insanely high shooting %s over their whole career… check out Tanguay for example.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/shot_pct_career.html
most guy on that list played in the 80’s when goalies were made of string cheese, but there’s the odd chance that Cogliano plays teh sort of game where a career average of say 15% isn’t that crazy. I do remember Staples pointing out that he had the shortest average shot distance of all the oilers last season.
I was looking for information about Okanagan Hockey Academy and I stumbled upon some information that caused me great concern. It’s a blog called Okanagan Hockey Academy. I was thinking about sending my 14 year-old boy to OHA but if the information on this blog is true, I would never send him there.
http://okanaganhockeyacademy.blogspot.com/
What can you tell me about OHA? Do they really have a crack house on campus? What are some good hockey schools in Canada where my son can develop and be relatively safe from harm?
Is it true Kerr was fired from Port Alberni due to favouritism of his son?
Thanks for any help or comments on this subject.
pk going downhill - Souray! - does not block shots, etc - big difference between Souray and years without Souray.
Traktor and Doogie?
Who invited the edmontonoiler.commers/Lowetiders over here. Damn. This is high rent space, for crying out loud, these little bitches need to know their place.
And by the by: Bet against me, girls. Let’s see how that goes for you.
I’ve been busy with family things over the holidays, but surely to God someone else had the time to drive off the fucktards, no? For shame, people.
I love the snobbery that is endemic when anyone arrives first at any particular place, or even era in history.
Everything “they” say has more intrinsic value, “just because’.
I get this from both sides of my own generational divide. Kids tell me I’m a dinosaur because I can recall Oilers actually being a great team, while the grumpy old bastards berate me because I wasn’t shaving when it happened.
Yep. The human race sure likes to fuck itself over.
Oh yeah. Since I’m sure to be attacked, I might as well state my most basic case: The Oilers are run like a bush league team. From top to bottom.
This is why they never contend(yes, we all know about 2006…well the Panthers Flames and other cinderella teams don’t make me feel fuzzy inside either).
And until they clean up the mess that’s the front office(for openers, I would recommend everyone associated with the team including players drawing lots and 1 in 10 get fired or waived or traded or sent down to the AHL on the spot - I have a tendency in crisis to be an extremist), nothing is ever going to change.
So wait, I agree with Vic and I still get told that I need to be sent to a concentration camp for retarded posters?
Wow, you fucking rock.
In fairness to me, Doogie, I never read your post.
I’m looking at the larger body of work, I suppose.
In short, piss off you halfwit.