I’ve been enjoying the fine summer weather (read: working too much) but this quote from Todd Bertuzzi verily screams out for some examination:
“In Anaheim I thought it was going to be a good opportunity but I just didn’t fit into the mode there with ice time - playing 10 to 12 minutes a game, it’s kind of hard to perform.”
Bertuzzi played fewer than 13 minutes four times in 2007-08. In one of those games, he left with concussion symptoms and in another, he was kicked out in the first for not having his jersey tied down when he got into a fight. He was fourth amongst Ducks’ forwards in PP TOI/G, after Selanne, Getzlaf and Perry. So he wasn’t particularly hard done by and the ice time was nowhere near as bad as he made it out to be. He actually averaged 16:27 per game, which isn’t bad considering that he doesn’t kill penalties - only 32 players played as little or less than Bertuzzi’s 11 seconds a night on the PK and managed to get more ice time than him. Most of those were on far worse teams than the Ducks.
So, a) he doesn’t know how much he played, b) he erroneously blames how much he played for his difficulties in putting up points and c) he actually played a lot considering he doesn’t kill penalties. He’s heading to a team that plays in a media bubble, has better options than him on the PP and a coach who is notoriously lacking in people skills. I can’t see how this will go badly at all.
Awesomeness.
Of course, Bertuzzi probably doesn’t count TOI where the puck is in the defensive end, because that’s technically when he stops playing.
AND he’s got a history of concussion on top of everything else? This is the Calgary free-agent signing that just keeps on giving.
a coach who is notoriously lacking in people skills
Yes, but Mike Keenan likes Bertuzzi. This is the third Keenan team to pick him up, and I’d be shocked if Iron Mike wasn’t the guy pushing this acquisition behind the scenes. Next up, Stephane Matteau!
Nobody ever accused Bertuzzi of being a)smart or b)diplomatic.
Awesome. Just awesome.
Earl Sleek -
that was hilarious.
Damn, this is all so good. Earl’s comment kills me as well, even truer than it is funny.
Has Fenwick stopped watching the Olympics yet? He’s watched enough of our pain, he owes it to us to be defending this Suttertastic season.
I can’t wait to watch the train wreck that will be the Calgary Flames in 08/09.
Rationalization and excuse-making has been raised to something of an art form in the Calgary Flames organization the last few years. I think Old Bert is just trying to fit in.
Or, he’s just being a douchebag, like always.
Didn’t Lupul say the exact same thing when asked to explain his shit season in Edmonton? Like, word for word?
Oilman - he did. Same kind of player, in terms of being a nothing at ES, marginal contributor on the PP and a nothing SH.
Staples wrote something a while back criticizing the proliferation of new stats and saying that you can’t top G-A-P. I really think he’s missing something myself - it really seems to me like players of this type tend to just drop out of the league. Bertuzzi is 33. Would you be stunned if he’s out of hockey in a year or two?
The classic example of this, although he’s a lesser example of the class than Bert, is Anson Carter. When the Oil dumped him, I was initially pissed, then I looked at the trade and figured it wasn’t bad. I distinctly recall writing somewhere that he seemed like he’d be out of the league in five years.
mc: it’s not like retiring from the NHL at 34-35 is shameful though. Granted, his last couple of years he might as well have retired anyway, but still.
I distinctly recall writing somewhere that he seemed like he’d be out of the league in five years.
Ya, but did you predict the 18 teams he would play for over those 5 years?
Tyler . . . not sure I agree with your characterization in regards to my argument about new stats.
Yes, I favour the oldest of stats, G-A-P, and I’m working on an equivalent stat for the defensive end of things (primaries, secondaries, errors, P-S-E, if you like).
Of course, most people who make statistical arguments about hockey rely mainly on the old stats, G-A-P. Desjardins certainly does so with his advanced stats, all based on goals being scored.
In fact, your withering argument slapping down Bertuzzi is based on his ice time as it relates to his G-A-P, is it not? These are hardly new stats.
Granted, we weren’t aware of ice time numbers a few year back simply because they weren’t available. Still, we had a general idea of who was getting es ice time, power play time and short handed time and who wasn’t, and made arguments based on that understanding. So “ice time” is hardly a new or advanced stat, IMO.
In our Bertuzzi piece, you didn’t even mention his QualComp, the one new stat so many people talk about, and a new stat I also find to be useful and brilliant conceptually, if not entirely convincing, as it’s based on problematic plus/minus numbers (which is no fault of Desjardins’, he’s just using what is available.).
So I’m curious about many new stats, such as QualComp, Corsi numbers and the like. I certainly support anyone adding to the body of research about these stats, as that helps us all make up our minds about their value. I’m just not a fan of overstatements in regards to their significance, as occasionally happens (and as I occasionally do myself).
Good God, I feel largely responsible for this nonsense, though I hope that Mudcrutch’s never ending love letters to the man have transferred some of the stink off of me.
When David was asked to create a commercially successful hockey blog for the Journal, the first thing he did was google and email.
I wasn’t in the first round, Andy Grabia told him that IOF was part of the Oilogosphere, so I got the questionnaire afterwards. I think Q1 was “who are the other Oiler bloggers?” and Q2 was “what are the best posts you have the read on the Oilogosphere”. Andy endeared himself to the man (inexplicably) and then pimped the IOF scoring chance post, how it had apparently made some sort of impact on Andy (Which is cool, Andy is a great Oiler fan and I’m flattered that I made him look at the game even a little bit differently. A bunch of others on the Oilogosphere, both bloggers and commenters, have done the same for me. That’s the point of the whole thing really, to my mind. I regret not following that through btw, if you count 10 cent and 25 cent chances … then add up the dollar value … stunning similarity to the shot clock most nights, even when the scoring chances never actually came with the shots … lesson being that possession matters a bunch, and that both shots and scoring chances trail along with it, but I digress).
In any case Staples grabbed onto this idea as his hook, perhaps that is why he kept shamelessly kissing my ass no matter how rude I was to him.
And now he’s invented a whole new kind of stupid. Hockey is just his medium. The Oilogosphere is just his victim.
David, if I misunderstood your post, I apologize. I never commented on it here (the post can be seen here for those who haven’t read it) because it seemed like old territory to me.
Here’s what got me about that:
The best hockey stats, though, are still the old ones. The good, old building blocks. The ones that everyone knows and uses all the time. I’m talking about goals, assists and points.
I don’t think that anyone particularly disagrees with you. The fact of it all is though, that G-A-P are made immeasurably more useful when you do things that explain the context. This includes a) knocking out the EN goals, b) converting it into a rate and c) presenting it in a form that allows for game states. I’m pretty sure that you’re converted at least that far; for whatever reason, that didn’t really come across in your post, which is what got me going about it.
In our Bertuzzi piece, you didn’t even mention his QualComp, the one new stat so many people talk about, and a new stat I also find to be useful and brilliant conceptually, if not entirely convincing, as it’s based on problematic plus/minus numbers (which is no fault of Desjardins’, he’s just using what is available.)
I didn’t mention his QualComp because he wasn’t whining about having to play the tough minutes. I think that anyone who reads this site with any regularity can probably tell you how Randy Carlyle runs his bench anyway (Bert wasn’t playing tough minutes). It wasn’t relevant to his complaint. I’m in agreement with you, by the way, on the issues with QualComp - I’ve written about it before. That said, I agree with an observation that Vic made in the comments to that post - it generally seems to slot players correctly within their own team.
Still, we had a general idea of who was getting es ice time, power play time and short handed time and who wasn’t, and made arguments based on that understanding. So “ice time” is hardly a new or advanced stat, IMO.
Go back and read some of the stuff that was written when Anson Carter was traded. Edmonton was up in arms over Lowe pulling that off. I remember reading the media coverage the next day and I don’t seem to recall the media - in Edmonton, where they should know better - talking about how MacT didn’t run the Carter line against the opposition’s best or that his 2000-2003 numbers (0.8/1.2/2.0 at ES, 1.8/2.0/3.8 on the PP) actually aren’t that good and how he wasn’t really a difference maker. The ice time stats were published and nobody in the media made the connection. So, with the greatest of respect, you’re kind of engaging in revisionist history when you suggest that this isn’t new.
As to Vic’s comments - I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again - I think that everyone benefits when the media is more engaged with what the fans are talking about. I thought that David did a great job on his end of the year series and I could see issues that have been discussed here and elsewhere around the sphere on many occasions reflected in his story. Do I wish that he pushed them more on the more implausible quotes from Cal and Pat? Sure, but at least the right questions were getting asked and, even if David didn’t follow up with “Do you honestly think anyone is going to believe that Souray was replacement for Pronger?” at least the issue was raised and, given how asinine Cal’s answer was, I think that the truth is a bit clearer than it was.
As to Vic’s comments - I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again - I think that everyone benefits when the media is more engaged with what the fans are talking about.
That is nonsense, “what the fans are talking about” lives on OilFans and HFboards. Staples recently referred to the latter as the “best hockey talk on the web!”. I don’t know where you would rank in Staples’ list, but clearly it would be below HF, despite similar levels of ingratiation.
And I think that this medium has had a tremendous impact on the mainstream media. They just don’t give credit.
Just because Staples might give a person some personal credit and attention, that’s a terrible reason for a respectable man to support him. At least it seems that way to me.
That is nonsense, “what the fans are talking about” lives on OilFans and HFboards. Staples recently referred to the latter as the “best hockey talk on the web!”. I don’t know where you would rank in Staples’ list, but clearly it would be below HF, despite similar levels of ingratiation.
Nah, I don’t think that’s true, or, at least, it’s not what I mean. I’m referring to the intelligent fans, some of whom can be found there but most of whom can’t (as set out by mike w., they’re generally slobbering orcs). I don’t think that David really uses much of what’s on HF as source material anyway - from what I can tell, he’ll pull the odd comment out of a post, leaving the stuff like the collective Schremp jerkoff sessions there.
And I think that this medium has had a tremendous impact on the mainstream media. They just don’t give credit.
Really? In the media I consume, I see it with Ron MacLean, Bob Stauffer and Staples. MacLean has credited bloggers and Stauffer certainly does. I’ve seen other, more random instances where shit is just directly lifted but I don’t know that it’s influenced how people think about the game, they just use the blogosphere as a convenient source of story ideas/research, like that jackass in Windsor who lifted Mirtle’s list of young guys who’d signed big contracts and was too lazy to even switch up the order of them. For MacLean, Staples and Stauffer, I’m inclined to believe that it has changed how they view/report on/think about the game and the Oilers and they’re all willing to extend credit, MacLean less so than the others.
With respect to Oilers media specifically, I don’t really see them being influenced by the Oilogosphere. For one thing, I’m pretty sure that most of the Sun guys can’t read. Brownlee (who I like as a writer, albeit more as a good journalist than as an analyst) was on about Malone and when I pointed out the numbers, he turtled on me and basically said he’ll understand the game how he understands the game.
Just because Staples might give a person some personal credit and attention, that’s a terrible reason for a respectable man to support him. At least it seems that way to me.
Well, that’s not why I support him and, in fairness to me (I’m sure Staples would vouch for me on this), I’ve criticized his posts vehemently in the past. Maybe not with the same fervour that I’ve taken apart someone like Dan Tencer but then Tencer is basically Pat LaForge’s mouthpiece and was practically begging for it.
Tencer is basically Pat LaForge’s mouthpiece and was practically begging for it.
I’m not sure what specific incident(s) you’re referring to where you’ve taken Tencer apart - I would assume that it’s something from quite some time ago. In any case, I would argue that he has really made significant strides to develop his own voice. And don’t get me wrong, I also used to think he was little more than a mouthpiece. But I don’t think that any more. I think that Tencer continues (unfairly) to be identified as the sycophantic homer that he was when he first started, not the more independent thinker he has been maturing into more recently.
Hmmm, an NHL player whining about ice time. I thought that was supposed to stop after Peewees.
Many in the mainstream media are older guys, like me, and it’s taken us some time to discover the Oilogosphere and the hockey boards.
I’d note that prolific (and excellent) poster Bruce McCurdy, not a MSM reporter, but an older guy, has only recently come to the Oilogosphere, and I suspect many older fans are still discovering it.
When I started this blog I had never heard of the Oilogosphere or any of the writers here, let alone QualComp, Desjardins, Corsi numbers and the like.
I was aware that Covered In Oil had taken a shot at a piece I wrote on Chris Pronger, but I didn’t know what Covered in Oil was.
Nor was I aware of the hostility that some writers here have for MSM reporters and the hard feelings that appear to exist between some on the HF board writers and some bloggers.
The hostility and hard feelings surprised me a bit, especially when I was at the sharp end of it, but I now see this kind of stuff goes with the territory. It’s the nature of the Internet, so if I’m going to write here, I’m being foolish if I expect the same kind of standards and values (for good and for ill) that we have to have when we work for a daily interest newspaper, such as the Journal, which is on everyone’s breakfast table. It took me awhile to figure that out, but it’s sinking in.
Going forward, I predict the lines are going to blur somewhat between the MSM and the blogosphere, as the MSM moves to the Internet as its main platform, and the best of the bloggers start to write for the MSM, if that is their desire.
Right now, there’s no faster source of news than the HF boards, as hundreds of hardcore fans are looking for Oilers news and posting it as soon as they see it. No MSM outlet can be faster than that, although, in fact, the HF Board isn’t some amateur venture, it’s an MSM outlet, as it’s owned by a big Internet company, so far as I can tell.
Right now, MSM reporters and opinion writers get paid and most bloggers do not, but I already see ads on some sites, and I suspect that more writers will have ads in the future, and the best of them will be recruited by the MSM.
If the best writers don’t want to be paid, that’s their business. I don’t earn my living as an Oilers blogger, but as a crime and features reporter, though part of me would certainly love to do this kind of writing full-time, as the freedom of writing on the Internet, even for a MSM guy, is enticing. I also love hockey.
If I had my way, the Journal would be regularly publishing the best of the Oilogosphere in the newspaper right now. For instance, more people should know about Desjardins’ work.
As for Dan Tencer, he’s a young guy, in his early 20s, he’s got a tremendous gift for the gab, he’s bright, he’s cheerful, he works like a dog, and as he gets more confidence and experience, I’m sure he’ll come off better, even to many of the more critical members of the Oilogosphere.
Of course, you folks have every right to blast him, and to blast me, and I’m sure you’ll keep on doing so, as Tyler, Dennis, Spoiler and
Slipper, to name a few, have done many, many times this past winter.
Tyler did indeed criticize me many times, and my only response is to go and research more about Patrick Elias, and see if, indeed, he had a crappy season, as I argued he was having . . .
Man, that last post reads like a Terry Jones article.
Is the three sentence pararaph dead?
“Tyler did indeed criticize me many times, and my only response is to go and research more about Patrick Elias, and see if, indeed, he had a crappy season, as I argued he was having . . .”
You can start by looking at the Devil’s even strength shot differential when Elias is on the ice.
It’s remarkably good.
Staples,
What’s the deal with those two kids charged in connection with the Rosco murders? Is there a gag order in place on the disclosure?
I recall a special on CBC earlier this year, and it’s my understanding that the RCMP undertook the “Mr.Big” sting in ensaring the two accused. It’s been well over a year since they were charged and there’s still little to no details with regards to the evidence in relation to the charges or the details on what exactly happened the night those mounties were murdered.
Slipper. Part of the Crown’s case against Cheeseman and Hennessey was presented at the month long preliminary hearing, which I didn’t cover, and at the bail hearing for the two men, which I did.
The family of the two men have complained in public that the two were entrapped in a Mr. Big sting.
There’s a gag order on the media from reporting any of the details of the evidence against the two men, so as much as I’d like to, I can’t say anything more about it.
The trial will go ahead in the spring, in May.
The Crown prosecutor in the case is a guy from Lethbridge, who grew up in Edmonton and is a huge Oilers fan. He told me he reads the Oilogosphere blogs.
As for the CBC special, the Fifth Estate’s coverage on the Mayerthorpe massacre has been biased, not strong journalism at all. I did a piece that looked at some of the problems with the CBC’s first documentary on Mayerthorpe.
Here is the link:
http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/features/fourmendown/news/story.html?id=bc83c291-e8b0-49f3-bd90-0b42df3da24f&k=6715
Not rhetorical:
You can only take me at my word when I say I’m not being as naive as I sound…
…but can anyone give me some honest answers as to why so many people are concerned with putting their respective stakes in the ground, claiming territory, etc?
Rhetorical:
Maybe there is a lot of subtext and previous interaction I don’t know about (in fact, I’m sure of this) but must every disgreement between a member of MSM and the blogosphere’s first edition turn polar in 15 posts or less?
Maybe there is a lot of subtext and previous interaction I don’t know about (in fact, I’m sure of this) but must every disgreement between a member of MSM and the blogosphere’s first edition turn polar in 15 posts or less?
Maybe you’re new to the Internet.
But seriously, I have noticed that Vic and Dennis in particular are quick to jump into a pissing contest with Staples (which he doesn’t really oblige them on, at least in terms of ferocity), and I have to wonder myself if it has anything to do with why they left HFBoards in the first place, i.e. a fear of high-level retardation seeping into their more intellectual analysis. I can see where such a fear would come from, but at the same time, everyone here’s been interacting with Mirtle for, what, three years now? He’s MSM, last I checked, albeit new-school MSM and a lot quicker to pick up on what they’re saying than the older members.
Doogie2K: Thanks for that link. Here’s another one . . . that comic is addictive. Here’s another Internet-related one, relevant perhaps to this thread . . .
http://xkcd.com/406/
LOL, just wow. I’ve never seen that comic before and the first one especially made me laugh out loud. Too true, too true.
What I think was missing from Tyler’s analysis was a detailed account of how many errors Bertuzzi made last year.
If we had that data, then I think we could see where Sutter was going with this move.
Maybe there is a lot of subtext and previous interaction I don’t know about (in fact, I’m sure of this) but must every disgreement between a member of MSM and the blogosphere’s first edition turn polar in 15 posts or less?
The reason that it took until Post 15 to become bi-polar was that the first mention of MSM didn’t happen until Post 11.
But seriously, I have noticed that Vic and Dennis in particular are quick to jump into a pissing contest with Staples (which he doesn’t really oblige them on, at least in terms of ferocity), and I have to wonder myself if it has anything to do with why they left HFBoards in the first place, i.e. a fear of high-level retardation seeping into their more intellectual analysis.
Colour me an eternal optimist, but I see an important upside, namely intellectual analysis seeping into high-level, uh, circulation. Communication is a two-way street, at least it is when there are open minds on both sides of the conversation. For his part Staples has delivered intellectual honesty on his blog and in his frequent comments here. Like most of us who are willing to express our opinions he can be dead fucking wrong about certain things — for example Henrik Zetterberg’s defensive gem that was the defining moment of the 2008 Stanley Cup Finals — but he advances the discussion and he credits his sources too.
But without naming any particular Oiler fans of the irreverent type, let me just say there are certain topics around here that are like going into the corner with Bobby Clarke or Dale Hunter — you might as well bring your stick up on the way in cuz you’re gonna need it.