As long as the guy has the decency to chime in on a post that isn’t totally complimentary of him, the least that I can do here is throw him a link: The Cult of Hockey. I’m sure there was no slight intended by the failure to do so in the first place; as Staples will learn if he’s to become an Oilogospherist, Dennis just doesn’t do links well.
One of the things I occasionally struggle with is just how much time I spend following, and obsessing about, my favorite sports teams. The Expos are long gone and the ownership in Washington has been cheap enough, not to mention stupid enough because as of this afternoon they’re still employing Jim Bowden, that baseball hasn’t really regained it’s hold on me since the stretch drive of ‘05. And looking back, it’s clear I only followed the Nationals that year because I was without hockey and I needed something to fill that void.
That being said, when the Expos existed, I was all in. It was only during the latter part of their existence did I find a few places online where sabremetrics was being discussed and in a couple of years time, a topic that had been the domain of Bill James and a relatively small number of disciples was now being throw around often enough in even semi-casual baseball conversation that stats like OBP were being featured even on local telecasts. The belief in numbers has not only spilt the baseball community according to beliefs, it’s also spilt them in terms of discussion. Guys who swore by the hit-and-run and placing a batter with a low average in the No.2 spot so he could sacrifice bunt, those guys didn’t seem all that interested in talking about the the prospect of trading a long-in-the-tooth first sacker because there was a kid down in triple A who might not have the range of the incumbant but could rake like Jack Cust. So, I think the discourse has gotten to the point of near insularity, folks on one side will throw a barb when a team like the ‘06 Cardinals win and then the other side whoops and hollers when the ‘07 Red Sox come out on top, but, overall, there’s really no meeting place.
The places on the Oilosphere that I visit, these places either tend to be either anayltical and/or mocking, depending on what guys like Lowe and Laforge are saying or doing on either particular day. These sites care about things like who’s killing penalties, who’s squaring off against the Henrk Zetterberg’s of the league and what the latest spin was on the last Oilers PPV telecast. Granted, I know they cater to the smallest percentage of the fanbase but it’s a release from conversing with the guys who only care that “Stortini was beaking off” or “Hemsky sure can dangle.” You know those guys, the ones in the workplace who constantly spout stuff that you used to be concerned with, things that you thought were important, when you were twelve years old. The folks I want to talk to, these are the ones who want to break things down, they want the why’s and how’s and while I’m sure there are Oiler fanboy sites on the net, I don’t frequent them. Well, unless you count reading The Sun and The Journal everyday.
Which brings me to David Staples.
There are some positive signs when it comes to this Journal blogger because, first off, he spoke to the Red Fisher of bloggers, the OS’s very own Lowetide, and just the other day I read a blurb where he went through stats to combine hits and blocked shits and while I’m not really a slave to the former stat, combining these two stats is a pretty cool way to measure the effectiveness of a defenseman. He also gave praise to Jan Hejda, and I was very impressed by that because whereas ‘07 was the year of the D corps being strong down low but unable to make a consistent breakout pass, ‘08 is the year of opposing forwards banging in rebounds and finding seams because the defense is built on guys who are more geared towards creating offense rather then stunting offensive chances. Of course, Staples failed to wonder aloud how Hejda slipped away from the Oilers, we’re getting to that, but at least he had the good sense to post a metric that showed that Hejda might be someone worth still having here.
But then you had today’s entry concerning Brian Burke and it makes me wonder if Staples has an agenda, if he’s trying to pander to a specific audience or if he’s drinking the Kool-Aid while a soothing voice emits from the loudspeaker.
To summarize, Staples considers one of the season’s pivotal storylines to be whether the Oilers finish low enough as to provide the Ducks with a top five pick, gleaned by Ana from the offersheet to Penner. Staples is dead-on with this assessment, this is the main thing to watch for. But the why’s and how’s of how Lowe got to the point of feeling such desperation, that’s where Staples and I disagree. And, where I’d wager, Staples and most guys with a clue would disagree.
Staples starts off his timeline by citing the Pronger trade and how that doomed the Oilers to rebuild. Now, if that’s not giving Lowe an easy out, I don’t know what is. No one told Kevin Lowe to trade Pronger to Anaheim for Smid, Lupul and picks. Smid isn’t a blue-chipper and no one will convince me otherwise. And no one will convince me that Lupul was worth the trouble either because there are a tonne of guys who can read shiftcharts;) and they’ll show you he racked up his goal totals in ‘06 playing against nobodies. And, later on in his timeline, Staples fails to mention that Lowe buggered the Pronger trade to the degree that he would later trade Jason Smith for Joni Pitkanen in a tacit admission that Smid wasn’t the guy to build around. And there’s also no one that can argue that if you give an already strong team one of the league’s best defensemen, also signed to an affordable contract, BTW, without really taking away from their corps in the process of the return, that the first round picks you receive in return won’t exactly be surebets. Later on, Staples goes on to say that gosh darn it, Billy, if the Oilers manage to avoid finishing in the bottom five, Ana would be lucky to get an impact player in the 6-14 slots. Sure, the Oilers were lucky to get a Gagner in that spot but that’s not the norm. Of course, what Staples fails to tell you is that the ‘08 draft class projects to be a very deep draft, and while that isn’t the case for all draft years, this one is supposed to bear much fruit. But, let’s say Staples is right, ok? If a 6-14 pick isn’t much to brag about, then how would you feel about having all of those Ana first round picks when they were good before you went and gave them Pronger for basically nothing? You think it’s hard trying to help your team with a 6-14 pick, try picking anywhere from say 22-30. How much value would those first rounders have? Curiously, Staples failed to mention that.
Also, if you want to talk about why the Oilers were so thin heading into last summer, which is why this mess began in the first place, why not mention the decision they made on Ryan Smyth? Where even I can argue that the Oilers hands were somewhat tied by the Pronger trade demand, no such hurdle existed when it came to their decision on Smyth. They had a chance to hand him his payout in the summer of ‘06 while numerous others got their respective bumps, but, in the end, they decided Smyth really wasn’t worth the trouble and they ended up trading him for let’s say 60 cents on the dollar. But of course, that didn’t seem to be worth Staples trouble.
Staples also throws out the word “top” when describing the status of free agent Sheldon Souray. I don’t think you can use that word without any quantification. You can say Souray had value because he put up a great point total on the PP but if you’re going to say that, you also have to cite his plus/minus total. But Staples doesn’t bother to do that and he doesn’t bother to tell you that while the Oilers thought Smyth was perhaps getting too old and might break down because of his style of play, they signed a guy in Souray who was just a few months younger than Smyth and had a longer injured reserve record. Plus, when talking about how Nylander and Pronger didn’t want to play here because of family issues, guess who who did playing here? Exactly.
These are journalistic sins of omission on Staples part and it makes me wonder if this is just the latest example of an employee of a company possessing a small stake in the ownership of the Oilers, The Edmonton Journal, making excuses for Lowe because they’re basically all in it together. There’s a weird dynamic in the Edmonton mainstream media where criticism of ownership or management seems to be nearly taboo. Bob Stuaffer, for example, has no trouble slamming the head coach because of the style of play he employs, but he fails to mention that the general manager has mismanged the talent quotient of the team to the point of where success isn’t really an option.
Staples, listen, you’ve got a chance to be one of the good guys here. You throw out links to blogs around the sphere, which means that you should eventually learn some things if you’re open to it, so I imagine you’ll wind up here and you’ll read this. You nailed the primary storyline of the season, so good on you. But in listing how the Oilers got to this place, you left out huge chunks of the novel. You nailed the beginning when you listed Pronger’s departure and you obviously have the ending because it’s all combined to leave the Oilers is a sorry on-the-ice state. But it’s the middle that elicts the best discussion. Why did Lowe move so quick on Pronger, for instance? Remember when Yashin wanted out of Ottawa? Remember how long that took and the return he brought? Exactly. I never saw that mentioned once in either of the Edm papers, so, hey, you can take that from me and run with it. Regarding Smyth, why would they go hardline with him over 100K per season and then a few scant months later throw money and picks at Nylander, Vanek, Souray and Penner? Would that have anything to do with the Katz ownership interest, I wonder? Were the Oilers making enough money all along that they could afford to go to the cap every season and once that was reflected in Katz’s offer, did that suddenly spur the sending? And are you allowed to talk about that? Or do you just ignore it and hope that other people don’t call you on it?
Look, it would be pretty boring, although truthful, but if you want a topic for your daily entries everytime it looks like the Oilers are going to finish in the lottery, and you want to explain how Lowe found himself in the position that he gambled away picks in the year of a stacked draft on the premise of first Vanek and then Penner, here’s your explanation: you can’t trade away Pronger, Smyth and Smid for Smid, Pitkanen and a bunch of devalued picks and expect not to drop precipitiously in the standings. That’s why Lowe was in a hole talent wise and that’s why he jumped at Penner. Brian Burke might be a loudmouth bore but in the Pronger and Smyth decisions, and the Souray move that followed, Kevin Lowe has done much more to tarnish his reputation than Brian Burke could ever hope to do.
I’m not sure if you think that, if you know that or if you’re even allowed to print that. From here, it looks like you have an agenda. Then again, maybe you’re just the guy who’s happy that Zach Storini will occasionally beak off.
Great post Dennis - what drives me crazy about the Oilers management at this time is exactly the things you are pointing to - there just seems to be a lack of direction and the msm just seems to buy into what is happening, with perhaps the exception of Barnes who at times has taken shots at Lowe.
Its Terry Jones the other day moaning about the lack of team toughness while he has said barely a word the past two years about how the team has been dismantled due to mismanagement.
I didn’t read Staples. Can’t be bothered. But my guess is he had a 750-word hole. Your post is, what, 2000?
He can’t cover everything even if it occurs to him to do so. So maybe it’s his shortsightedness. Maybe it’s a conspiracy. Or maybe it’s the limitations of his medium.
That’ll be the last time I ever defend the fishwraps.
You know dennis, you are the Brian Burke of the Oilogosphere…bright enough to convince people that you know what you speak of, arrogant enough to make everyone wish you were wrong.
Thanks for throwing a log on the fire here Dennis.
In fairness to Dennis, Staples is blogging these days so it’s not like he’s got word limits. Heck, he’s even lifted the most artistic thing I’ve ever done, my graphic of Lowe melded with the Godfather logo.
Great point on Stauffer too - I was thinking about that as I walked up from the subway. For all the crap that MacT catches about this team, they just don’t have enough hockey players. Everyone healthy wouldn’t make the difference either - they’re getting destroyed on a nightly basis it seems.
Oilman, I will take that as a compliment.
I’ve given up on hockey writers. Scanning the headlines from tsn.ca is about all I need from the mainstream media these days.
Dennis, So would Brian Burke.
Much for me to chew on there Dennis. It’s late at night and the Oilers just lost another one, but, I find myself pleased about a few things. . . A few nice moves by Robert Nilsson, a few good shifts by the rookie line of Brodziak-Cogliano-Gagner, which is the best rookie line on the Oil since Graves-Murphy-Gelinas (but were they all rookies?). Anyway, I’m not addressing any of the points you raised in your post about my blog on Burke, Public Enemy #1, but I will address them, in time. The blog I’ve just started, The Cult of Hockey, is mostly a hobby at this point, and done mainly on my own time, so I can’t get to every issue right away. But to RiversQ, who has given up on mainstream media, well, that’s your choice, but I’d suggest you not give up on Matty, who is a real gentleman, a hard worker, and an Edmonton Journal institution, whom I’ve come to admire. I’ve seen his job up close and it’s not such an easy one. As for me, I’m not exactly mainstream media when it comes to hockey. I haven’t had a sports beat since I covered the Carleton Ravens in 1984, and have instead mainly written about homicide and human interest stories, with the odd Oiler story done now and then, mainly profiles of players and coaches, plus the expose on Grant Fuhr’s cocaine issue (shameless self-promotion, except I have mixed feelings about having done that story). Really, I’m another fan, a guy who admires Bill James, but isn’t so hot at math as James, a guy with a long memory of the Oilers and a desire to write about the team myself, as a fan, and to read and share the other top stuff on the Oilogosphere about the Oil.
…plus the expose on Grant Fuhr’s cocaine issue (shameless self-promotion, except I have mixed feelings about having done that story).
Why the mixed feelings?
Also, since I was wondering at the time, why no phone call to Pronger in Anaheim to see if he had anything to say about Cal Nichols’ comments that he should have got a divorce? Probably wouldn’t have wanted to say anything but I imagine it would have been fun to hear his reaction even if it was unprintable.
Well, David, I have to give you credit for chiming in here. I didn’t mean to be overly harsh in critiquing your entry but you can’t list the downfall of the Oilers without including the Smyth situation. This was a guy who wanted to stay here and wasn’t asking to break the bank, either. But the Oilers decided to go in another direction and we still haven’t found the reason why.
I suspect because it was the Year Of The Katz and once Daryl came along and made such an offer, that pretty much blew the doors off the idea that the EIG WEREN’T making scads of coin and then they had to backpeddle and starting spending some. All of that was too late for Smyth, of course.
BTW, I’m not sure why you felt bad for exposing Fuhr. I think there was a much wider story to be told, ie who wants to bet that a lot of that team weren’t extreme “partiers”, but it’s Edmonton and what really gets, or has gotten, written?
The other thing that I really wanted to touch on, and it goes back to Smyth, is I’m always looking for an agenda when I see something from the Journal. Your company has a stake in ownsership and I think, that outside of the occasional barb from Barnes, that colours everything that’s written.
Speaking of Matheson, I love on Sunday’s when he gets tidbits from both conferences, that’s a really good read. But he’s basically toothless when it comes to blurbing on the hometown heroes.
Here’s my take on reporting in Edmonton: everyone remembers when they almost left town and it’s almost an atmosphere of “we’re just happy to have a team” and that’s why no one breaks out the knives for Lowe and Co.
Seriously, David, Lowe trades Pronger for magic beans, he makes terrible decisions on Smyth and Souray, and yet no one calls for his head? I’ve read the Columbus papers from time to time and I wouldn’t say that’s a rabid market by any stretch, but even their scribes got up the gumption to call for Doug Maclean’s head.
Also, if you want to cite precendent and numbers to try and prove your point about draft positioning, why don’t you do the same to measure the potential impact, and by impact I mean crater-sized damage to the team, of the Souray signing?
I think David Staples rocks!
If MC79 is super-duper (and he is!), then David is super-dee-duper.
Seriously.
“Really, I’m another fan, a guy who admires Bill James, but isn’t so hot at math as James, a guy with a long memory of the Oilers and a desire to write about the team myself, as a fan, and to read and share the other top stuff on the Oilogosphere about the Oil.”
I think you’ve been given a tough gig, here, David.
Was it your idea to start this blog? Failure to answer this simple question directly will, of course, be damning.
I’ve bookmarked you blog, which wasn’t very easy to find by the way. It’s http://communities.canada.com/edmontonjournal/blogs/hockey/default.aspx, since Dennis failed to link. And it is very clear by your posts so far that you have only recently started reading the Oilogosphere.
You should be good with pop culture references, but so are Dennis and the CinO boys, and they can refer to Brittney’s ?eat ?urtains, and ?norting ?oke off of Torres’ back (hilarious references both, btw) without facing consequences.
There is a real danger of coming across as someones dad at the keg party. And it’s not an age thing, a lot of us are about the same age as you are.
If The Journal wants to take more revenue from this medium, they should give Dan Barnes a couple of shots of absinthe and let him type away without repercussions. Odd that you wouldn’t link to his blog with yours, btw.
Mild apologies for the post before last. An inability to get my intended post to be accepted by MC’s site pissed me off. And simply typing in “test” would have been too reasonable.
And additionally:
Oilman: Why don’t you go and write your own spectacular blog. Now that you can’t exactly swing the “Hey Dennis, I told you that all Lowe’s moves this summer were brilliant!” hammer without embarrassing yourself. I think it’s time for you to establish your own forum for your viewpoints.
Vic, I don’t mind Oilman, the killer for him is that he knows I’m right more times than I’m wrong so even though he wishes it weren’t so, it is:)
I think that Staples has a chance to be one of the good ones because he’s reading the blogs everyday and from guys like yourself, Ty, Riv etc, he will learn, there’s no question about that.
But from my perspective, when I see a guy blogging from the Journal and he’s not going nuts over obvious bad moves like Souray and Smyth, then my horns emerge.
Dennis:
I don’t think Oilman has ever tried to project himself as someone who knows what he s talking about. 3 to 1 he can’t skate.
But if you want to check basic sense at the door and wave the ‘yay hometeam!’ flag, then good on ya, but for crissakes bring something to the table, anything at all really. That kid just gets on my tit, that’s all. I’m sure I’ll feel terrible when his dad emails me and tells me that he just turned 12 years old and has been heartbroken by my comments. Still, the intarweb is that way, and he should play with kids his own age.
test
I wrote a fairly lenghty response to this Dennis, however your site won’t accept it.
Maybe we could get Grabia to repost MC’s stuff at BoA, so that we could discuss it.
Vic
You have to put in an email address, or it won’t publish.
Vic:
Why is it that no one on the Oilogospere can take criticism? Seriously? My problem with you guys, and not that it’s really a problem, more of a “this makes me roll my eyes” is not the message you deliver, but the way it is deliviered. Really, dennis just told this guy that if he continues to read dennis’ writings, not only will he learn how to really watch and understand hockey, he will be a good guy because of it. Honestly, take a step back sometimes and really look at how dennis, and you in particular, address people. I agree with most of what dennis says here, and for the record I was not a fan of either the Penner or Souray signings, and my biggest things to cheer for this year have been Ducks and Flames losses.
Dennis is bang on with his last comment…I wish this team weren’t so f–cked up, but it is - I just find his and your tone so agonizingly condescending. I’d love to speak to you in person Vic to see if it’s just an internet persona you put on, or if you really are this arrogant?
Honestly, if you hate comments so much, why allow them on your blogs? Why blog at all? You could all e-mail each other your thoughts and comments.
I hope this doesn’t come off as angry or little - I’m just being honest - I thought my earlier comment was as well.
Vic,
Only 3 to 1? I figured someone as sure of himself as you would give at least 10 to 1.
BTW, I’m 33 and play goal in a senoir league….does skating backwards count?
Easy now… I can handle bashing Lowe, MacTavish, Matt Greene, and the Edmonton media, but there’s no sense in turning on commenters!
As for Mr. Staples, wow. Not only does he read these blogs but he’s brave enough to post without getting super defensive at what was a pretty good lambasting by Dennis. I must confess I’m impressed; I really didn’t think anyone in the Edmonton media cared to look at some of the really insightful stuff put out at CoI, BofA, IOF, Mudcrutch, Lowetide and the rest. I know reading these blogs over the past while has changed my perspective on both hockey and the Oilers, and as far as I’m concerned it’s the most insightful coverage available. P.S.- thanks for including the link, Vic.
Jonathan,
I think what Vic doesn’t understand is that, if I didn’t see value in this stuff, I wouldn’t continue to read it.
Oilamn says:
“I’m 33 … does skating backwards count?”
It sure does! But …
I’m 109 … does being able to raise the puck count?
“I think what Vic doesn’t understand is that, if I didn’t see value in this stuff, I wouldn’t continue to read it.”
Maybe so, but on the other hand, it’s pretty easy to take comments on your writing personally. I’m a somewhat mediocre short story writer (in addition to my day job), so I totally understand wanting to defend your work. Which, again, is one of the reasons I’m so impressed with Mr. Staples post.
Oilman said:
Honestly, if you hate comments so much, why allow them on your blogs? Why blog at all? You could all e-mail each other your thoughts and comments.
See, this is what gets on my tit about you. I directly question you, and you turn it around to make it seem that it’s “all commenters + you” on the defensive, which is absurd.
The vast majority of commentors on the Oilogosphere are excellent. It is an insult to them that you are trying to attach your grease-filled wagon. And it is also devious and creepy.
I repeat:
* Oil Blog commentors are generally excellent.
* When I talk about you, Oilman, I’m really talking about you.
MC said:
Vic
You have to put in an email address, or it won’t publish.
Oops. Sorry about that.
I wrote a post to some of your queries earlier, but had some technical difficulties, and couldn’t post it. Anyway, I will come back to this tonight, or first thing tomorrow. Right now, I got to catch the LRT.
P.S. Oh, I see my failing. I didn’t put in my e-mail address, so that’s what went wrong.
Oilman, I didn’t say that Staples had a chance to be a good guy if he kept reading my rants. I left myself out when I mentioned Vic, Ty and Riv as guys he could learn from and what I said was considering he was reading around the Sphere, Staples had a chance to see a different perspective and that might allow him to be more objective. I’ll stick by that because it’s simply not objective to write what he did and totally skip over the Smyth situation and also consider Souray a top signing.
It just isn’t.
I’m not saying that Staples is a bad guy. But I am saying that in the span of a few months, to decide it was worth losing Smyth over 100K per season, then throw picks and money in pursuit of Nylander, Vanek, Penner and Souray, something smells about that situation. Either Lowe lost his mind or Katz made all the difference. But you know what, I can’t even give Lowe that last benefit of a doubt because this city doesn’t attract FA’s, cue Riv coming in to say it’s because they’re too cheap to pay them;), and here’s a guy in Smyth who plays against the other team’s top lines and is willing to stay here and you let that guy walk? Seriously, what the fuck. Then you sign a 31 year old Souray for five years when he has a pretty long IR rapsheet and he was a -28 playing on the third bloody pairing?
Sheer fucking lunacy.
Staples can’t use those words, mind you, but it’s just not being objective if he glosses over the obvious.
dennis, point taken….but I wasn’t only referring to this post. I made a little jab over at Lowetide one day and you told me that I didn’t know how to watch a hockey game. I understand what you guys talk about(contrary to what Vic thinks)….maybe it’s just him that I’ve grown to dislike so. I believe I’ve commented on this site twice and for some reason Vic has decided to be the champion of sphere and shit all over me…whatever. I believe you took my earlier post as a compliment…agreed, it wasn’t meant to be an insult to the content…I just sometimes get annoyed by the presentation…but we’ve all got our issues right….mine is not liking to be talked down to.
Listen…the ’sphere is what I read - I’m not a big fan of what the sun or journal have to say - you can listen to the quotes elsewhere anyway…I can’t listen to Tencer cause he’s a suckhole, Brian Hall lost his mind some time ago so he’s out, Stauffer is OK but he’s on at an inconvenient time and I can’t get streaming audio at work…so if I want informed Oilers opinions I’m stuck with you guys…and you’ll have to maybe put up with the odd comment from me.
on to Vic…what was it about my comment that “got on your tit”? Do you want to be the Brian Burke?
Dennis, to answer some questions . . .
1. Why not talk to Pronger in the Journal story http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/story.html?id=92fab5f6-a0e8-43fe-bcb2-43fad1a44471&k=87141 from last spring where Cal Nichols lays out the Oil’s side, saying Lauren Pronger never liked it here and forced the trade?
For this story, I called Pronger’s agent Pat Morris, I believe is his name, and interviewed him to get Pronger’s side, as Pronger had long since stopped talking about the issue. Morris said little on the record, at least, and made it known that this was Pronger’s position, to say nothing. That said, I should have included this info from Morris in the story, to clear up any confusion on this matter, to show we had covered our bases in this regard.
In the end, it was clear to me that Pronger’s position — and one that Morris had been spreading through off-the-record interviews starting with Al Strachan in late June 2006 — was the same story that Cal Nichols was now telling — Pronger wanted out because his wife hated Edmonton, end of story.
Why Pronger never came out and said that himself, on the record, remains a mystery.
2. My ambivalence about working on the story of Grant Fuhr’s cocaine abuse is kind of long and windy, and I will get to it, but not right now.
3. Now, I wasn’t writing my blog at the time of the Pronger trade, so I didn’t think it through as some of you have, but my gut feeling then was that, of course, Lowe took the best deal out there. Could he have held out and got more?
Maybe, maybe not. But, remember, teams were filling up their cap space, so he couldn’t wait too long, and lose potential bidders through cap concerns.
I disagree with Dennis about Smid. I think Smid is going to be a helluva player. At the time, I thought the same about Lupul, as he seemed like a gritty sniper in the playoffs that year. But that’s not how he played in Edmonton, and dealing him for Pitkanen was a wise move. As for Jason Smith’s inclusion in that deal, to me Smith was an old man already in the NHL, and finding it hard to move the puck out of his own zone. His blocked shots and hits numbers were great, but it was time to move the guy, to “sell high” when the team still had a chance to get something, such as a Pitkanen, for him and Lupul.
3. The Smyth deal. I’ve blogged about this deal repeatedly in my old blog, The Cult of Pop, and on the Cult of Hockey. Here’s the link, if you’re interested, to my latest screed . . .
http://communities.canada.com/edmontonjournal/blogs/hockey/archive/2007/10/24/thumbs-down-to-dave-hodge-and-his-man-crush-on-ryan-smyth.aspx
Essentially, I believe Lowe made the right decision, at that time, to trade Smyth. Even if Lowe anticipated the cap moving up, it was still the right move.
Smyth has hard, hard, hard miles on him. I don’t expect he will be vital player at age 34 or 35. That’s how it is for players like him.
Better to spend money on a younger guy, heading towards his peak, not away from it.
4. This brings us to this summer, and Lowe’s moves. I wasn’t blogging then, but I have already said in this new blog I think the Nylander offer was a real misstep for Lowe, given that the Oil already had a cheap, young, somewhat similar player in Robert Nilsson, reading to takeoff into the peak years of his career.
Now, Souray, that’s a hard one. I’ve not done any kind of hard look at comparable defenders to Souray, so I don’t know how he might well do at age 34, 35, 36. I like that Lowe front-loaded Souray’s deal somewhat, so it’s possible, though not likely, he could be traded more easily down the road.
Was the Katz offer at play here? Maybe, but I don’t think so. One day, a reporter can ask Cal Nichols this, see what he ways.
At this time, I think the Souray signing was really about changing the way Edmonton was being perceived, both in Edmonton and around the NHL, as a place that was NOT a destination for elite players. The day of the signing, I recall my gut feeling, that it really felt great for the Oil to sign a guy, a “top guy” in my mind.
Now, you argue that Souray is no elite player.
I’m not yet ready to agree with you on that.
Did the Oil overpay? Well, did Detroit overpay for Rafalski? Did Montreal overpay for Hamrlik? It could well be they all overpaid, but I’ve yet to really investigate that.
Not a very satisfying response on Souray, I know, but all I can say for now.
Finally, I think it was Vic here who asked why I started this blog. Hell, why do any of us start these things? Because we really, really want to be part of Oilogosphere, of course. Just like you guys, I get fired up when I disagree with something a mainstream commentator has said, and I want to give my two bits.
The whole thing of doing The Cult of Hockey was my idea. No one asked me or put me up to it, though they were happy for me to do it, as my previous blog, The Cult of Pop, was the most popular blog at the Journal (shameless self-promotion. Note to self: Stop that!).
My original intent was to just blog once a week, but that quickly went out the window. I think there’s a place at our website, Oil Country, to help readers find all the good stuff on the web about the Oilers, so that’s part of my idea for the blog now, too.
Now, in the end, I may well end up coming off as the old fart at the keg party, but that’s OK. I was once the guy puking in the corner at the keg party so I’ve been there, done that.
Well, it’s not that you don’t know how to watch hockey;), I just thought that if you were reading my stuff enough when you thought I was making mistakes, then you’d get the overall message: all players and roles aren’t created equally:)
As for the rest, I can be a hard guy to like or deal with. I know that much is true.
Dennis, with all due respect, sometimes it’s pretty hard to tell *what* your overall message is, because it’s buried in yards of invective.
Sometimes a reader’s inability to understand isn’t their fault, and the writer needs to take responsibility for it.
Put another way, there’s a reason books have editors.
Oilman:
Nothing specific about that comment, as pathetic as it is. It’s just you in general get on my tit.
I think you’ll find that there’s plenty of space over at HF , Oilman.
Invective!…that’s the word I was looking for!;o) Thanks Mike
Vic….why waste your time on pathetic comments? Perhaps I should ask myself the same thing about you.
Thanks for the advice….I’ll file it under Invective.
Oilman: “…so if I want informed Oilers opinions I’m stuck with you guys…”
“Stuck with” is an odd way to put it. Take a look around - the Oilogosphere is unique. There just isn’t another group providing the breadth and depth of excellent content. And it’s all free. I’m not even an Oilers fan and these blogs are the only news I make sure to read every day. In a way, you have to feel sorry for the Edmonton mainstream media. The writers in every other NHL city have got it easy.
Jeff…I didn’t want to say “lucky to have you guys to read” to people who think I’m the lowest level of fan on the planet - so I wrote “stuck with”….don’t tell anybody.
BTW:
And why David Staples to write the ‘cocaine’ story instead of one of the hockey writers? Had he suddenly branched into NHL investigative reporting, just for that day, and somehow missed all the other stuff that was going on? Enquiring minds want to know.
This was after SI’s famous article alleging five Oiler players used cocaine, no?
Don’t worry though, Oiler fans, turns out it was just the black guy. Whew! Thank goodness.
And why David Staples to write the ‘cocaine’ story instead of one of the hockey writers?
Now THAT is a good question. I assume that he had fewer people to piss off than the guys who were there every day?
Go check comment 30 - Staples remarks got hung up in my spam filter (it catches all the media types - you guys should see the filth that I have to screen from Terry Jones).
David,
As you know, Morris is one the the good guys on the agent front. Have you asked him how Pronger became an Oiler in the first place?
His story is that he asked Kevin Lowe to approach STL GM Larry Pleau about trading for Pronger. Pronger wanted to play in Canada, and since the Oilers had cap space, they were a prime target.
Now at the time, nobody was sure if the new rules would limit the effectiveness of a guy like Pronger, so props to Lowe for granting Pronger’s request.
How do you think Pleau felt about Pronger limiting his options that way? I know how I’d feel, perhaps Pleau is more gracious. Still a question worth asking. And it’s not completely fair to blame Pleau for the poor return on Pronger when his trading destinations were so limited.
The biggest concern for me with the Pronger trade was that Lowe was looking for youth in return. Keenan attest to that fact directly in a quote from the Sentinal.
Why wasn’t Lowe pursuing guys like Jokinen or Luongo from FLA? Or Hossa, Gaborik, etc. Why was he looking for inexpensive youth?
Why did nobody in the Edmonton media ever ask that question of Lowe? Is it simply an issue of glaring incompetence? Because the alternative reasons are even worse.
Checkout www.hockeyway.com for all intenrational hockey leagues.
Wow, I gotta give Staples credit for standing in here and taking some inside fastballs, but I just can’t believe the stuff I’m reading here.
Comparing Souray to Rafalski? Give me a break. Talking about hard miles on Smyth but not acknowleding Souray’s injury troubles? Please.
And, the coup de gras, and something that a few of us have been worrying about, Staples talks about now being the time to sign Stoll and how he was a stalwart in the ‘06 Cup run? Come again?
Stoll, outside of the time both Hemsky and Smyth were injured early last year, has played nothing but soft minutes, ie that means he plays against nobodies, while guys like Horc and Reasoner have taken on the toughs like Sakic and Forsberg. How can people miss that? And how was Stoll a stalwart in ‘06? He basically did nothing after scoring that 5 on 3 goal in G5 in SJ.
Signing Stoll will mean letting Horc go and it will mean that we won’t be left with one soliatry centre to match up against the Zetterberg’s of the league. Oilman, THIS is why I said Staples can learn things by reading this space and a few others. Seriously, which of the numbers guys would call Stoll a stalwart? And who could debate them when they don’t?
BTW, check prosportsdaily.com and the Blue Jackets page for confirmation that Zherdev was offered for Lupul last spring and the Oilers turned it down. And then think of Zherdev plus the Oilers picks in ‘08 instead of Penner. And Zherdev was cheaper, to boot.
Finally, Staples, no one made Lowe trade Pronger right off the bat. I mentioned how the Sens were better off by making Yashin sit a year but it seems like you aren’t going to touch that one. And for all the teams filling the capspace for ‘07, guess what, there was even MORE space to fill for ‘08 which made Pronger’s contract more affordable.
This stuff just kills me.
BTW, I love LT to death but remember when I said Staples picked him to interview because he supported the Pronger move and didn’t go nuts over Smyth’s departure?
Check this out today from Staples:
Lowetide isn’t one to curse, or used scorched-earth rhetoric to chastise Lowe and the EIG over real and imagined errors. He is measured, just like that dad behind the wheel, who no matter how much the kids scream and fight, has got to keep that car on the road.
–Good on Lain for keeping it clean but there’s Staples agenda right there.
Of course, Stoll is playing soft minutes. That’s the whole point of negotiating with him right now.
You see, I suspect he’s been a hard minutes player in the past. So — if he’s healthy — the Oil would be signing a hard minutes player when he’s now playing soft minutes, believing they will get hard minutes in the future.
That’s the essence of buying low.
As for an agenda, well, of course I have an agenda. My agenda is to enjoy the Oilers and the Oilogosphere and figure out what moves might be best for the team to make. I wonder, though, Dennnis, is your talk of “agendas” not the language of conspiracy? Do you really think I’m part of a conspiracy? An agent of the evil Canwest Oiler-owning empire perhaps?
Or does anyone who disagrees with you do so only because they “have an agenda”? Or could it be that, with all due respect, they think you’re simply wrong-headed in your argument on this or that issue?
So maybe you’re right, and I am a not-so-secret agent. Maybe I’m a dupe and I don’t even know it.
But I think of myself as a fan and a journalist. On my blog, I’ll write what I like, within the bounds of responsible journalism. My agenda is to make fair comment and to be another Oil fan adding in his two bits, hoping to be part of “the wisdom of the crowd,” as Andy Grabia puts it.
Yeah, I don’t know who told Staples to do this, and to be fair he’s just doing as asked. The reason that he’s looked like a dad at the keg party so far (about to rap by the way, prepare to grimace), in large part, is because he’s been put in an awkward position to start with, but mostly because he only read two weeks back on the Oilogosphere before believing he was equipped to comment and be accepted. Damn, you really have to be a big believer in your own bullshit to even try that. Which is admirable in a way I suppose.
David said:
You see, I suspect he’s been a hard minutes player in the past.
David, I would think that a credible journalist, nay a credible person, would justify that remark in a tangible way, or give it up the ghost.
That’s fair, no? you’re the one who used the terminology. My rule in a fight is, and always has been: no weapons, except for those that the other guy brought into it.
You see, I suspect he’s been a hard minutes player in the past. So — if he’s healthy — the Oil would be signing a hard minutes player when he’s now playing soft minutes, believing they will get hard minutes in the future.
I have a hard time with this and it’s something that, logically, I just don’t think holds up. Take 2005-06. When everyone is healthy, Peca and Horc are the tough minutes guys. I’d venture to say that at least at the start of the year, Reasoner probably was in front of him too. Looking at last year, Stoll did absolutely nothing until one little spurt before the injuries. Even then, he clearly played softer minutes than Horc and probably Reasoner. For the type of minutes he’s played, he’s never been all that much at ES. I think that MacT had it right today, when he wrote:
“[Stoll]’s never been a very productive five-on-five player, but he’s been an all-around special-teams guy. His power-play production is struggling, strictly from a lack of confidence. He’ll get that back. I know that.”
The question I have for those trumpeting the idea of paying him $4MM+ is how that could possibly make sense. Even leaving aside the issue of the concussions, at what aspect of the game is a he first line Oiler? Horc takes the toughest minutes at ES. Stoll is basically a blueline shooter on the PP and Souray is back there now, with Pitkanen on the other side (maybe Comrie meant to say that Lowe’s moves are like communism - they work better in theory than in practice.) Basically he’s a good guy to have on the PK, a legit top line PK guy…that isn’t worth $4MM plus.
Oh, and he has concussion problems.
…but mostly because he only read two weeks back on the Oilogosphere before believing he was equipped to comment and be accepted. Damn, you really have to be a big believer in your own bullshit to even try that. Which is admirable in a way I suppose.
Nah, I’m fine with this. Either he’ll start to look at the game the way we do or he doesn’t. If he does and his friends in the Edmonton media (who presumably keep an eye on what their competitors) are saying, start to ask the questions that have been posed in places like this over the past few years, then everyone who cares about the Oilers is better off.
Even if he doesn’t, the guy posted here in good faith, isn’t a fanboy and can write in complete sentences. That’s good enough for me and would put him amongst the best a place like HF has to offer.
Outside of the time when hemsky and smyth were both injured early last year and macT put together a 14-16-34 line that did well against the other team’s top lines, for instance I know there was a game in Van in early Dec, a shutout, and that was a time when those guys were playing the tough min, Jarrett Stoll HAS never played tough minutes.
He just hasn’t.
When he was the “stalwart” in the spring of ‘06;), 14-Peca-34 were taking on tough min while 94-10 plus Winchester or Harvey were also taking on tough min. Meanwhile, Stoll was playing against the Marcel Goc’s of the world.
Look that up. In fact, look through the archives of IOF for a post I made in may of ‘06 where I watched the game and listed all the matchups. You can see what MacT and Wilson were trying to do against each other and by who got the matchups they wanted, you can see who each guy was valuing. Put it this way, Wilson wanted nothing to do with Thornton vs Horcoff and for the love of all things sensible, if Lowe resigns Stoll on the cheap and in the process loses Horc, I’m done with this team until that balding lunatic is axed. We’ve already given away our best D for nothing, we did the same with our best winger and if we do the same with our best pivot, then I’m done until the author of such moves is canned.
Stoll is a low event player, meaning not much happens when he’s on the ice, and this has always been the case even when playing against nobodies that he should be owning. Is there a value in is ability to kill penalties, win draws and produce on the PP? Sure there is. But just how much value and at what cost to other player movment, ie Horc? Raffi Torres was always a soft minute player too until MacT put together a Samsanov-Stoll-Hemsky soft min line in the spring of ‘06 that meant that Raffi went up to play with Peca-Pisani on a tough minute line. 14-16 used to play together all the time and they used to get the candy minutes while 10-94 took on the tough and 18-19-34 did the same. This is a fact and it’s always the way MacT has done business. Years ago, Moreau-Marchant-Grier boogied with the fatties while Weight got to dance the hot chicks.
Look at when the Ducks won the Cup, for instance, the Pahlsson line took on the tough guys and Selanne and Co ate the softies. This is fact. There is a value in guys who can either hold their own against tough guys or murder the soft ones and to this point, Stoll has shown the ability to do neither.
So, your suspicion that Stoll has played tough minutes in the past, it’s wrong. That’s not me being saucy, it’s me stating facts.
As for your agenda, maybe I’m wrong about that. Maybe you’re just a guy, and you’d have a lot of company in this regard, who believes Lowe has the magic touch. And for one year, he did. But since then he’s been garbage.
Smyth out and Souray and Penner in pretty much proves that. And, what about waiting out Pronger like the Sens did with Yashin? You don’t want to touch that one but it was a viable option for Lowe.
Overall, I appreciate you linking to Ty’s and LT’s blogs because it will give your readers the chance to see a different side of analysis. But, if you’re going to come here to talk hockey, you’d better have your facts ready:)
In any case, I’m glad you’re “here.” We’ve been trying to convert one of the real journalists for a long time now. Like Ty says above, if you give our way of watching hockey a try, and all of a sudden that filters down into the lines of questioning by the Oilers beaties, then we’ll all be better off for it. In fact, MacT seems to be begging someone to go down this road lately, though. He pegged Tarnstrom as a 5-6 guy who’s a 2nd pairing PP cat and he just basically told everyone that Stoll does fuckall at even strenght, which we refer to as EV. He’s almost marking things down for you fellows in terms of who plays the important roles.
But if that’s not clear enough, folks can always come here:)
The reason that he’s looked like a dad at the keg party so far (about to rap by the way, prepare to grimace), in large part, is because he’s been put in an awkward position to start with, but mostly because he only read two weeks back on the Oilogosphere before believing he was equipped to comment and be accepted. Damn, you really have to be a big believer in your own bullshit to even try that. Which is admirable in a way I suppose.
What is he supposed to do, Vic? He’s said on here that a) he isn’t a sportswriter, and b) that he just started reading the Oilogosphere regularly a few weeks ago. But you want to nail him for not being here all along? I’m willing to give him some slack, myself. He has sought us out, is trying to get our side of the story, and is reading, linking to and commenting on our material. Isn’t that what we wanted?
BTW, I love LT to death but remember when I said Staples picked him to interview because he supported the Pronger move and didn’t go nuts over Smyth’s departure?
Check this out today from Staples:
Lowetide isn’t one to curse, or used scorched-earth rhetoric to chastise Lowe and the EIG over real and imagined errors. He is measured, just like that dad behind the wheel, who no matter how much the kids scream and fight, has got to keep that car on the road.
–Good on Lain for keeping it clean but there’s Staples agenda right there.
Dennis. I just got back from an hour and a half long conversation/interview with David Staples. And he interviewed Mike Winters from Covered in Oil over the weekend. All of this is for the same story that LT will appear in. I think it would be fair to say that neither Mike nor I write in the same manner as LT, or share all of his opinions. And I don’t know if anyone other than Tyler has been as hard as me on The Journal and its writers. So while I understand your comment, and where it is coming from, I think, in this case at least, it is misdirected. I should also note that I asked David if he would let me interview him for The Battle of Alberta, and he kindly agreed. Personally, I’m very excited about this. I have lots of tough questions for David, and he seems completely willing to answer them as best as he can.
OK, having read all your arguments, I’m convinced you’re right that Stoll did NOT play hard minutes when it comes to 2005-06.
Peca/Horcoff did get the hard minutes then.
But did not Stoll play hard minutes last year, before his injuries? That’s my memory, though, I admit, I haven’t looked hard at any data that exists on this (And where do you get this data, Vic? It’s very interesting.).
MacT has said the development of players isn’t a slow and steady line upwards, but it happens in spurts, and Stoll had one of those spurts last year, where he suddenly was outstanding, and for a reasonably long stretch, which ended with his injuries.
I had that time of Stoll’s strong play in mind when judging the value he would have if, and only if, he was healthy.
But my essential point remains the same: If the Oil believe — based on their inside knowledge of the guy — that the strong Jarret Stoll we saw in the months before his injury last year is the real Stoll and that it’s now only a matter of time before Stoll is that player again, then it’s time to think about signing him now, at a cheaper price, before he actually does come on strong and the price goes through the roof.
Anyway, it’s clear you guys know what you know about NHL hockey very well indeed.
I’m impressed and I’m evidently going to have to raise my game when it comes to my own commentary at the Cult of Hockey.
I look forward to the challenge.
Cheers, David.
David, assuming you haven’t already, you should really check out some of the stat centered sites on the hockey web (this used to be one *cough* mudcrutch *cough*). Check out Dejardin’s www.behindthenet.ca and look at his even strength stats. If you make note of players with high Goals For and Goal Differential rates when they’re on the ice, you can then use Vic Ferrari’s handy Head to Head Minutes site to see who on the Oilers are facing those player. So in essence, you’ll find ouit who’s carrying the mail anf you’ll never have to rely on your eyes or your biases again.
And if you retort that it’s over intellectualizing things, journalism will be dead to me forever.
(this used to be one *cough* mudcrutch *cough*)
Lengthy response: I’ve recently switched from a PC to a Mac. My PC had given up the ghost - it couldn’t handle my spreadsheets anymore. My Mac will be able to shortly, once I have my technical team deal with some issues. At that point, it’ll get more stats-y around here.
Oh, and I have a demanding career.
Dennis, see my first response to you. Also:
“We’ve been trying to convert one of the real journalists for a long time now.”
Why?
Thanks, slipper;)
Ok, David, there’s no such ‘insider knowledge’ to suggest that Stoll is ready to handle, yet alone thrive, in the tough minute role. And if you sign Stoll and give him his bump, then it means that Horc’s out the door and #10 IS a guy that can handle the tough minutes.
In my admittedly not so humble opinion, Stoll should only be paid if he proves to be able to murder soft opposition. I’d keep Horc and give him his raise and hope that in two years time, Gagner can do at EV against the softies what Stoll has failed to do. It’s time for Stoll to go and I hope he gets hot enough for long enough that we can trade him for a young D that can actually defend. Stoll for Bieksa would’ve been a great trade a few months ago, IMO. Maybe it was a one year deal but Bieksa coupled with Mitchell to play the tough min while the Salo/Ohlund duo played the second toughest min. This is a guy that could’ve helped the Oil. Granted he looks a little injury prone now and has been since getting hurt last spring vs Ana but consider this:
- Stoll’s counting stats, ie goals-assists-points, would have to look mighty impressive to a team in van that simply can’t develop their own offensive players.
- Van, when healthy, has a whole lot of guys that cna play defense and a whole lot of fellows who can’t score.
That would’ve been a good trade and it’s one I hope the Oilers will one day be able to make with Stoll.
Simply put, Stoll’s scoring rates will really, really have to rise if he’s ever to be worth another significant raise.
Andy, yeah the guy’s new on the beat but he won’t touch the idea of waiting on a Pronger trade and he thinks Smyth has hard miles on him but he ignores Souray’s track record. I’m sorry , but I just can’t ignore that.
MikeP, wouldn’t it be good to have reporters asking questions on some of the topics we throw around here? You wouldn’t want a reporter asking Lowe questions like:
- Why he jumped on Pronger?
- Who was feeding him the information that told him the cap wouldn’t rise to the point where 5.75 mill to Smyth wouldn’t exactly be a bankbreaker?
- what’s the value of a guy like smyth who can line up agianst the other players/
- why did age matter so much for smyth and not souray?
Andy, yeah the guy’s new on the beat but he won’t touch the idea of waiting on a Pronger trade and he thinks Smyth has hard miles on him but he ignores Souray’s track record. I’m sorry , but I just can’t ignore that.
I agree with you. So show him. Prove it to him. And play nice, Dennis, if possible.
This is pretty awesome, guys. I am proud of this Staples guy for hanging in there; these guys might rub you like sandpaper but yeah, there is a goldmine here. As has been said, Oilogosphere is the class of the league.
Carry on.
Andy -
With the greatest of respect, what is there to prove? I’m all for treating the guy with some respect but the fact that Sheldon Souray is injury prone…I think I learned that shortly after I learned what offsides are. In fairness to Staples, he’s not the only Edmonton media guy with this particular blind spot but it’s a glaring one.
As has been said, Oilogosphere is the class of the league.
Will you still think that if I lift your most recent cartoon?
Andy, I honestly try to, I really do. And I’m not as abrasive in person, though I am just as sarcastic;) but when you read some of this stuff, it really makes me wonder.
And that’s why I trot out the idea of an agenda.
Will you still think that if I lift your most recent cartoon?
Heh. You are talking to one of the more bull-headed image-lifters around; go nuts.
Dennis:
Lowe is either lying about the unexpected cap, or is interchanging the word ‘cap’ with ‘budget’ as it suits his purpose. I think it is the latter, and actually meant to comment to that effect on Chris! post at CinO.
Article 50 of the CBA will explain in greater detail, but because of the issue of escrowed salary, the league’s auditors review revenues quarterly, estimate the total revenues, and adjust the escrowed amounts accordingly.
In a nutshell, four times a year Lowe would get a letter from CitiBank telling him what they expected the league HRR to be (and by extension, next year’s cap).
Now the upward adjustment was 5% this year, which is the default value when league revenues were lower, but really this value could have been anything, though 5% would have been the odds on favourite.
So when Lowe says he was “surprised by the cap!”, he is either fully illiterate, lying, or misdirecting (the other lying) by choosing to use “cap” to refer to his own budget. There simply aren’t any other options.
With the greatest of respect, what is there to prove?
No worries. All I meant was that David seems open to having his mind changed. So we should all do it, and do it with solid evidence. In the future tense. I know you’ve covered this stuff in this post already.
I have lots of tough questions for David, and he seems completely willing to answer them as best as he can.
I hope you like talking about he proposed EDM arena, Mr Staples
Most of the bloggers, if not all of them, are pretty bright guys, so when I talk about an overall agenda, I mean, why is that it’s just the bloggers who raise the kinds of questions we constantly bandy about? It’s not like Matheson, Ireland and Co have filters on their respective brains to the point where they aren’t allowed to look at all sides of an equation.
Yet that possibility never seems to manifest itself in print, does it? I guess I could go back and google and see what the reaction was the day after Souray signed but I’d be shocked if anyone said, “wait here, you didn’t sign Smyth because you didn’t think he was worth that money, but you will give similar monies to Souray? Really.?”
And if there was an objective media in Edm, those would be the kind of things you’d read.
So, even though I first came to know Staples through some Survivor commentary I came across on the Journal’s website, and for the love of gawd, if you think I’m crass and ignorant regarding my views on hockey, don’t get me started on what I think of people’s TV habits, now he’s got his cult of hockey blog going and he’s wading into a different pool.
Vic, I know what you’re saying is true, I just like throwing it out there and hoping that someone will bite. Of course the Oilers knew the cap was going to rise, just like they know it’s gonna rise for next year too. But the Oilers came out for the ‘07 season, hot on the heels of a long playoff run that garnered them scads of money, and wouldn’t you fucking know it, they go on the cheap right off the bloody bat. The defense was the major problem and we didn’t have a puck mover but golly gee willikers, we were gonna trade for one and gosh darn it, the folks believed it because Lowe had made some many moves for the ‘06 season. And look, the Bruins have a guy in Bard Stuart who can move the puck and can play tough minutes, as he would go on to prove after the fact with the Flames, but the Oilers don’t move. Later on, the Flames did move but Lowe says the cost was too high. After he says that, he trades Bergeron and a 2nd round pick for a prospect and a third round pick when Bergeron’s value could be compared to the defenseman that the Flames dealt in order to pick up Stuart, Ference. Of course the thing was that the Oilers always had a hard budget in mind but were willing to miss the playoffs in order to save salary. It was cutting off your nose to spite your face but oh well.
No one ever wrote how you could tie the Bergeron departure to the value of what the Flames gave up for Stuart. No one.
And I fully believe that the Oilers were ready to miss the playoffs again in ‘08 too but in losing 18 of 20 games down the stretch, they got so scared of pissing the fans off, they decided to spend money even if it made fuckall sense. And then here comes Penner and here comes Souray, and of course the dual pursuits of Vanek and Nylander before them. Now, my deal is, why not sign Danny Markov to two years, 7 million bucks and all at once placate the fans who look at team’s salaries AND improve your team, albeit without tying your hands for the next five years.
Yet, no one wrote about that either.
I spoke about how Zherdev was offered for Lupul. Will anyone write about that? Will anyone wonder why if the Oilers didn’t want more offense, they could’ve made that move which would meant not making the Penner move and thus keeping your first rounder in a year of a deep draft where you’re team doesn’t exactly look like a playoff team?
Andy, I honestly try to, I really do. And I’m not as abrasive in person, though I am just as sarcastic;) but when you read some of this stuff, it really makes me wonder.
And that’s why I trot out the idea of an agenda.
I like your style, Dennis. It just takes some getting used to. And I’m the last one to talk about agendas. I can see and raise on agenda posts all night long.
Dennis, when it comes to hockey contributers in print, TV, radio, etc. Isn’t it more likely that they’re just wrong, as opposed to having an agenda? For instance, Philly @ Ptts on TSN right now. The big pre-game preamble focuse on how Briere’s being demoted to “third line duties” in favour of Mike Richard. Well, guess who just assisted on the first Philly goal while on the ice against Crosby? Nevermind, I’ll tell you, it was Briere.
These guys just make it up. There opinions and judgements on what happens during a game and on players aren’t anchored by anything quantifiable. It’s all bias and bullshit.
They saw Souray’s 29 goals on defence and there minds shout SUPERSTAR! They don’t care about his minus one million, the jobbers he played against while give up all those even strength goals, and they certainly didn’t look beyond last season’s stat lines. Had they cared to look, they would have seen how anomolous Souray’s one break out season was, and they would have noticed how he’d missed an average of 24 games per season over the past 6 or 7 seasons.
I don’t think it’s conspiratorial on the Oilers’ scribes part. I think it’s arrogance and laziness. It’s the mindset that would sneer that Kevin LOwe won six fucking cups and some douche bag with a spread sheet is going to tell him who’s a good hockey player…
Had they cared to look, they would have seen how anomolous Souray’s one break out season was, and they would have noticed how he’d missed an average of 24 games per season over the past 6 or 7 seasons.
Hell, I won’t even say you have to go look. This almost counts as common knowledge, I think.
And I guess with Lowe, the fact that he’ll interchange “cap” and “budget” isn’t that surprising or problematic, but it sure is damning. He knows the realities of his spending history, but still ties up big money in guys he’ll need to hide in his roster.
And I fully believe that the Oilers were ready to miss the playoffs again in ‘08 too but in losing 18 of 20 games down the stretch, they got so scared of pissing the fans off, they decided to spend money even if it made fuckall sense.
Yeah, this was kind of my take as well. It was more about headlines than wins.
Slipper:
Thanks for the tip on the Desjardins’ site.
Vic:
One final thought on the issue of Stoll playing tough minutes or easy minutes. . .
In a recent post on your own blog, you showed how Stoll takes many more defensive faceoffs than offensive faceoffs, and wrote: “You would expect the guys who lead at this (and Stoll is the team leader) to be the best faceoffs guys and also the same guys that get the tough minutes.”
You then immediately discounted that expectation on your blog, implying that Stoll plays soft minutes.
But why discount what this stat implies?
Is this stat meaningless, in your mind?
To everyone else on Souray issue:
Helluva good topic, and issue many of you have raised about his injury problems is crucial, as it is a key issue for older players, from Souray to Staois, Pisani to Moreau, Smyth to Smith.
I know forwards like Smyth tend to burn out around 31-33, when they stop performing at peak levels, but I’m not so sure what happens to players comparable to Souray at ages 31-36. Does the same apply to defenders as it does to forwards, or do they have more longevity?
That’s the key issue, and if anyone has looked at comparable players to Souray, I’d like to see their research on their longevity.
Another interesting issue is Souray’s quick rise in productivity. What is the history with players like that? Does it show an increase in skill, maturity and/or conditioning that will stick with them, so long as they have similar opportunity? Or do these players tend to rise and fall fast, their one big season the result mainly of opportunity, or, perhaps, intense motivation over a short period of time, brought on by a player being in his contract year?
David:
Souray amassed those goals on a pretty prolfic Montreal powerplay team. Notice that the Habs powerplay continues to click without Souray, which might suggest he was the benefactor of a system and other players ability.
And alot of good those powerplay goals did for his team, when based on the abysmal +/- he put up playing against jobber, he gave it all back anyways.
As far as I know, there’s no great *hockey* data on drops in production as a function of age or career GP in hockey. I’ll go out on a limb and say there’s actually no difference (let’s say
As far as I know, there’s no great *hockey* data on drops in production as a function of age or career GP in hockey. I’ll go out on a limb and say there’s actually no difference (let’s say less than 1yr) between forwards and defensemen.
The short answer to that last paragraph, David, is that very few players make a leap at that age. What looks like a leap is generally one of those years where the guy was just favoured by the hockey gods (in a contract year, doubly so). Lowell Macdonalds are few and far between.
Staples, I think you’ll have your awnser on Souray at year’s end.
Dennis:
I’ve now answered some of these questions about Souray, having looked at 17 comparable players to him (big, kinda slow, strong offensively).
I can now see why you guys have had your noses so out of joint about my Souray comment, as it’s clear to me he was a bad risk to sign. Smyth was a bad risk, too, but Souray was worse. Players like him stop having near peak seasons around age 29 and are out of the league usually by the time they’re 33. Anyway, I’ve written a post about this for my blog, and I’d paste it here, but that function doesn’t work on my blog tool. I’m still fine-tuning the blog anway, but I’ll post it on my blog tomorrow around 10:00 a.m. MST, if you’re interested.
Thanks for the prodding gents. It was an interesting but disheartening study to look at the Souray comparables.
Wow, the guy writes puff pieces for the Journal, and folks here are expecting him to be able to fight at the same level as those who’ve been studying these numbers for years? He’s obviously in over his head trying to reason this stuff out with the sluggers. Just take it easy on him, will you? Like mud says, this can be nothing but good, if folks give him a chance to catch up.
David - good stuff on comparing Souray to his peers, etc. Get into the shift chart stuff at timeonice.com, look at on/off +/- data and other stuff at behindthenet.ca, check out IOF posts, and you’ll start to notice that the general views of “fans” are usually pretty far removed from reality.
Another way to look at Souray’s contract (and other moves) is in terms of asset management. I don’t know if you are an active investor, but if you are you’d have to admit you don’t buy the stock that has poor fundamentals but was coming off a 30% gain last year (Souray). You’d pump your play money into something with good fundamentals that pays a nice dividend, even if it’s best year only returned 15% (Smyth, let’s say). I know I’m butchering this, but I think you get my point. Lowe is the guy who was buying Nortel and Yahoo at the top.
Really happy to see this thread and your participation in it — over time I hope I can start seeing some interesting, analytical stuff in the Journal for a change
You see, I suspect he’s been a hard minutes player in the past. So — if he’s healthy — the Oil would be signing a hard minutes player when he’s now playing soft minutes, believing they will get hard minutes in the future.
That’s the essence of buying low.
I’m struggling with the logic here. That’s really the opposite of buying low. Playing Stoll heavily on the PP and giving him soft minutes at ES will increase his counting numbers and drive his price up NOT down.
I’m sure Vic will get to the faceoffs thing, but I don’t entirely take that as being indicative of tough minutes.
The d-zone faceoffs are spot duty and although MacT is running his bench strangely, he still wants RH and LH centres available for important d-zone draws. The Oilers routinely send Horc or Stoll out strictly for the draw. Ultimately, that’s a small part of the matchups that make up the tough minutes.
It is evidence of context though as Stoll will start more shifts in his own end and probably see his numbers suffer as a result. It’s another tool to add context to the numbers and it does so objectively, which is key IMO.
David,
I thought it was too obvious to mention, though I think I did allude to it:
MacTavish likes two centres out for own zone draws if the other team is due good players on the ice. He also favours centres to take draws on their side of the ice. Horcoff and Reasoner ar LH shots (draws), Stoll is a righty … he’ll get more of those. That’s why it’s “best faceoff guys AND tough minute guys” written in the post.
That in itself is not particularly interesting. The fact that Sanderson is the winger being pulled off in a lot of those situations, and Brodziak left on … that speaks much louder than MacTavish’s words ever could.
Did you follow the high diving board analogy, David? That refers to Huddy using Greene and Souray as tough minute defenders during the flow of the game (with tragic consequences) until Souray’s injury. Then with Grebeshkov / Gilbert in that gig after that, much to the horror of the Oilogospere (you didn’t even read back two weeks, did you?). There were even times when Grebeshkov/Gilbert were being left off of the tail end of the powerplay to rest them for the critical shift-after. I mean we all see that with Pronger and Lidstrom, if it’s a big game, or the playoffs … but Grebeshkov? Damn.
But when Huddy had time to think about it, like the kid on the diving board, he seemingly couldn’t quite bring himself to throw these guys into the fire. And therefore the order of the D there is downright reasonable (Staios, Pitkanen then a drop to Tarnstrom … then the rest.) And of course you’re more likely to put out offensive players for O-zone draws if you know weaker players are out there.
Almost everyone who reads that post will know that already though. It seems a touch insulting to bring it up every time.
On Rafalski: The man has been playing tough minutes since he broke into the league. And delivering results. Flat out one of the best defencemen in the game. His rookie season he played in the top pair with Scott Stevens right through to the Stanley cup. Go to NHL.com and look at the results, if Modano was on the ice for 11 goals at evens in the finals (say 5 goals-for, 6 goals-against) … then I would wager that Rafalski (as well as Stevens, Elias, Sykora and Arnott) were on the ice for about 10 of those events.
It doesn’t matter if writers for your paper waxed lyrical about Madden’s line shutting down Modano … because except for the shifts immediately after PPs … it simply never happened.
Last season Rafalski played more against Sidney Crosby than any other defender in the league, and it was a stunning amount of icetime. You can go back years and years and it’s the same story with this guy. Plus he can produce on the powerplay.
You can also read transcripts of postgame pressers for the finals at ASAPsports.com. they tell you outright who they were matching against who.
So to compare him to Souray is utter madness.
Smyth and Horcoff have been the guys logging tough minutes for this team for ages. Often hard matches. Smith on the back end, Pronger even moreso when he was here, esp down the stretch. So not only are they plus players, they are usually chewing up a big chunk of the icetime against the other team’s best. You lose players like that and it sends a ripple right down the lineup. Every gets bumped up into a position where it’s tougher to get results, and they enjoy less success.
That’s the end of my first and last Educating Rita chat. Just go back and read a bit.
Riversq said:
…
It is evidence of context though as Stoll will start more shifts in his own end and probably see his numbers suffer as a result. It’s another tool to add context to the numbers and it does so objectively, which is key IMO.
Absolutely, there can be no arguing that has an effect on the numbers. I mean a lot of these shifts are no-wins for the extra centre … if the Oilers lose the draw and get pinned in their end … could get a minus. If they clear the zone and start heading up ice … 9 times out of 10 the extra centre subs off for the winger. No point or plus is possible.
I’m still waiting for someone to quantify that effect though.
Gents, I was able to cut and post the Souray item from my blog, now that I published it. Here goes . ..
ITEM: SIGNING SHELDON SOURAY WAS A POOR RISK
Now to the less than happy news . . .
The heavy hitters of the Oilogosphere jumped all over me for a recent reference I made about Oil G.M. Kevin Lowe signing a “top defenceman” last July in Sheldon Souray.
How wrong you are, the expert Oil bloggers told me, Souray is no top defender. He is injury prone, a defensive liability and had just one really good offensive year, which he’s not likely to replicate. All in all, he’s a bad risk.
This was news to me. When Lowe signed up Souray last July, I was relieved, elated even, mainly because of all the nasty anti-Edmonton talk the previous winter by Eastern media about no big name free agent ever wanting to sign here. So, while it was clear Souray wasn’t a perfect player, I was still momentarily thrilled. Without a doubt, he was a big name.
Haven just now taken a closer look at Souray’s potential, however, I am no longer thrilled. It’s disheartening to report this, but Edmonton will have to get very, very lucky to get anything close to their money’s worth out of Souray.
Why such a negative statement?
A good way to figure out how any given player will likely do in the future is to examine how similar players have done in the past. It was by looking at similar players to Ryan Smyth — guys who can score but are also grinders — that I determined last fall that the Oilers should not sign him long-term because player similar to the aging Smyth tend to burn out around age 31-33.
So what happens when we look at players similar to Souray?Ron Greschner
First of all, Souray is a big, kinda slow-moving defender with a load of offensive talent. I found 17 players who had all of those qualities from the post-1967 period of the NHL. One or two of them, such as Rob Blake, were much better players than Souray. Others, such as Robert Picard, were a bit worse. But all had those same three qualities, very big, kinda slow, strong offence. (For a full list of the comparable players* (including Ron Greschner pictured here), and how I rated them, as well as a list of guys** who came close to being on the list but were eliminated mainly because of their stronger skating, see the end of this item).
RESULTS: With these 17 comparable players, I looked at the age when they had a noticeable drop off, the age at which they stopped performing at near peak capacity. I also looked at their age for their final NHL season.
On average, the 17 comparable players were 6.34 feet tall and 218 pounds. Souray is listed on Hockeydb.com at 6-feet, 4-inches, 223 pounds.
On average, the comparable players had their last near peak season at age 29.3. In other words, they started to burn out even earlier than Ryan-Smyth type muckers/scorers, making the Souray-type even a poorer risk than the Smyth-type.
On average, these Souray-type players had their last NHL season at age 32.8. When their play dropped off, it dropped off fast.
Only a few of the 17 comparables had near peak years after age 31, the age that Souray is now. Blake — the best of the comparables and a far better player than Souray — was still near his peak at age 35. Ron Greschner, Jerry Korab, Kevin Hatcher and Uwe Krupp were all still near their peak at age 32, but that was the last season they performed at that level.
CONCLUSION: Sheldon Souray is likely right at the end of his peak years, if not already past them. The Oilers have given him a contract that pays him as a Top Five player for the next five years, but Souray will be greatly defying the odds if he’s a Top Five player even by the second year of his contract. He will be lucky to be an NHLer at all by age 35, the last year of his deal.
He was a poorer risk than Ryan Smyth, who was also quite a poor risk over the long term. In fact, last night’s exciting game where Smyth wasn’t much of a factor and Souray didn’t play is about what you would expect from both of them at this stage.
Now, no man, and certainly not Sheldon Souray, is doomed to fail even if the odds are against him.
And, no doubt, there may well be some flaws in my study here that don’t account for all the factors surrounding Souray’s individual case, and he will actually succeed in the long term.
One can only hope, but it would be rash to count on a positive outcome.Steve Smith
DATA: Name of player, their age at the start of their final near peak season, and age at start of final NHL season: Ron Greschner, 32, 35; Dave Babych, 28, 37; Barry Beck 26, 32; Bob Dailey 27, 28; Jocelyn Guevremont 26, 28; Kevin Hatcher 32, 33; Willie Huber, 26, 29; Jerry Korab 32, 36; Uwe Krupp 32, 33; Dave Manson 30, 34; Rob Blake, 35, 37; Dmitri Mironov 31, 33; Vlad Malakhov 30, 35; Robert Picard 29, 32; Steve Smith 29, 36 (pictured); Mark Tinordi 26, 32; Behn Wilson 28, 28.
** Players who were similar in several ways to Souray — such as Larry Robinson, Jeff Brown, Dave Ellett, Eric Desjardins, Al Iafrate, Craig Hartsburg, Reed Larson, Al MacInnis, Larry Murphy, Pavel Kubina and Chris Pronger — were eliminated either because they were too quick-skating, a bit too small, or still playing. Blake was included as I suspect this is his last year.
For what it’s worth, I don’t disagree with David on Souray although I have some doubts about the methodology. David, you might want to take a look at my post on the Souray deal here: http://www.mc79hockey.com/?p=2781
Note the shooting percentage bump last year.
Mc79: Followed your link to your Souray piece. Excellent work. We get to the same conclusion in different manners.
If I had read your post in July, I wouldn’t have said in October that Souray was a “top defender,” to sign.
I agree with your point that Oil had to do something to appease fans in July. More than that, they had to win a major P.R. battle in league over notion that Edmonton was a crap place for players to go.
I suspect, though, that Lowe briefly appeased the fans, and maybe excited the hockey agents by over-paying Souray, but, in the long run, the only thing that will help Edmonton’s image as good place to play will be to win, and signing Souray is unlikely to accomplish that.
One other point, Dennis, you suggest there is “no such thing as ‘insider knowledge’” about Stoll. How can you say this? You can’t be serious in suggesting that MacT — being around the player every day, all the time, and also knowing what his doctor and other experts have to say about Stoll’s injury — doesn’t have some inside knowledge about the guy.
Of course MacT and Lowe have some inside knowledge which you, with all due respect, do not have. What their inside knowledge is worth is another question, but it certainly exists.
Thanks to Vic for delving further into his faceoffs post, and my questions about it.
Finally, thanks for the info on Rafalski. Of course, he is a better risk than Souray. But the player is now 34 years old. I’d be curious to see how many guys that age are still near their peak level of play at age 36, 37, 38.
Cheers
David.
You’ve misquoted Dennis a bit. He said, “there’s no such ‘insider knowledge’” to suggest that Stoll could play hard minutes. I don’t think anyone would argue that MacTavish knows things about these players that the rest of us don’t. But that fact in itself suggests that Dennis is right. If there was reason to believe that Stoll could handle the tough minutes, wouldn’t he be doing it at least part time by now? It’s not like there are a ton of players in front of him who are holding him back.
Thanks, Allan. The way I base my opinions on numbers. Sure, I watch the games and form some intial opinions but overall, I let the numbers guide me. I can pretty much tell from watching a game how the coaches are trying to guide matchups, for instance, if you see the same matchup three times in the same period, there’s your clue, but then I’ll check the stats afterwards just to make sure. Of course the guys who watch hockey in that manner, or care enough to pay that much attention, we’re still in the minority. But I think that’s really the only way to watch it and when I see people comparing Souray to Rafalski, well;)
BTW, Rafalski may be three years older than Souray, which means he’s been productive in his years of 32, 33 and 34 which puts him a leg up on Sheldon already. Well, actually it puts him three years up;)
But the ‘good’ news about Souray’s contract is that the cap’s certainly going up for next year because of the Can dollar and if the NHL ever gets another national deal with ESPN, then it’s really gonna go up. So as long as Katz makes a scattered offer to buy the Oilers, and in the process of that offer shows just how lucrative it is to own that franchise, that will probably spur more spending and then Sheldon won’t be taking up so much of the cap. That’s the only ‘good’ news about it, though.
Now, back to the matchups, heading into the ‘06 playoffs when the Oilers were going up against a stacked Det team, I wondered how MacT would run his bench and I started paying really close attention. Of course, the whole Peca thing where he whined in the regular seasonabout playing on the 4th line, that put things into focus as well because when you checked the TOI, him and Horcoff were playing the most EV min for pivots so he obviously wasn’t a fourth liner. I mean, years ago, we’d called the Moreau-Marchant-Grier a “checking line”, which in hindsight, meant these guys were playing what we now call tough minutes, ie against Iginla-Sedin’s, sakic, etc. Folks in the MSM still call those lines, checking lines. I mean look at what the Pahlsson line did last year, that was against the other team’s best lines while Selanne-Macdonald murdered the nobodies. I don’t thinik I saw that mentioned even though, like Vic said, Carlye was putting it out there. So, from the Oilers POV, when you looked at the ‘06 playoffs and when you saw just how much macT was sheltering Stoll, that said it all for me.
The good news regarding Stoll is that, on first thought, I figured his counting stats in ‘06 were pumped by playing on the PP point with Pronger, because after all, Pronger is like cheese whiz; he just makes everything better:) But in looking at rough stats, ie Goals Per Game and Points Per Game, Stoll was pretty much on pace to replicate his 60 odd point season before going down with injury.
But he wasn’t doing it whilst playing tough mintues and this is why I cast aside the notion of ‘insider knowledge.’ MacT isn’t waiting for some magical moment to spring “tough mintues Stoll” upon an unsuspecting opposition. With a full compliment of players, which he had for a lot of last year until the injuries, if macT thought Stoll could make a difference playing tough minutes, then he would’ve been there.
Stoll’s a guy who has to make his paper against the soft min and, hold onto to your hat here, while I don’t dismiss the value of him being a very good RH faceoff option, he’s been no great shakes on the PP this year so if we’re looking at guys who can make a difference vs soft min, I’d rather have Mike Comrie than Jarrett Stoll.
Anyway, I was impressed that you posted a sorta of Souray retraction in your blog today. All we need now is for you to examine the wisdom of jumping early on the Pronger trade, and you’ll be off to a great start. Later on, you can examine why the Oilers only began spending money after Katz made his offer. I’m telling you, Staples, there’s a myriad of things that your MSM won’t touch but it’s out there for anyone with a presspass to grab ahold of.
I thought it was too obvious to mention, though I think I did allude to it:MacTavish likes two centres out for own zone draws if the other team is due good players on the ice. He also favours centres to take draws on their side of the ice. Horcoff and Reasoner ar LH shots (draws), Stoll is a righty … he’ll get more of those. That’s why it’s “best faceoff guys AND tough minute guys” written in the post.
That in itself is not particularly interesting.
It isn’t too obvious to mention. I know I’m glad you did. It’s interesting to me, and not something I see when I’m watching. I have to make a concerted effort to do so, but I end up getting distracted by some hot girl in the crowd or something stupid one of the announcers say. I don’t think you understand how differently you see the game than everyone else, Vic. And I know you always say that people should read back if they want to understand better what you are saying, but without a link or some other context, that isn’t always possible. I know I need you to repeat stuff to me, so I’m sure others are the same.
Allan, ball hockey. Soon. Start doing suicides now.
Not sure if Ryan Walter’s doing any TV work these days, but a few years ago he did colour for that douche Hughson on the Canucks telecasts and later on he was doing some Flames games.
I remember in the ‘06 season, we’ll always have ‘06, boys;), Edm was in Cgy and Ryan Walter was doing the colour and the guy was going absoutely nuts over the fact the Oilers had two LH faceoff men in Horc-Reasoner and two RH guys in Peca-Stoll.
ball hockey. Soon.
I’m drinking already.
Is there any reasonable way to find the impact of LH vs. RH faceoff men? I’ve often wondered if it’s significant, or one of those persistent bits of “hockey magik.” Does anyone out there have a way of pulling who won faceoffs vs. who, or on what side? Or are we stuck with how many, and what zone?
Who vs who faceoff wise is available on NHL.com, is it? Not sure if you can find the areas of the ice, though.
Remember when Brind’amour absolutely cleaned Horc’s clock in G1 back in ‘06 and Horc went nuts and said that The Camel was cheating?
Yeah Dennis, I remember Green as a colour guy obsessing on that as well. Every once in a while we drag this subject out, kick the bujesus out of it, then put it back on the shelf. I guess it’s due.
MacTavish is the guy who is crazy about that. I don’t get his obsession. And both ends of the rink as well.
I remember the year that Poti was traded for Mike York (01/02?), Marchant (who didn’t seem best pleased) remarked something about MacTavish wanting a RH centre. I think it was Comrie, Marchant, Reasoner, Murray down the middle then, all lefties. And Horcoff would be a sophomore so he’d still be playing LW then (a LH shot anyways, of course). Maybe Swanson with a bit of C that year, can’t remember which way he shot, but he didn’t play much anyways.
Until then I hadn’t even really noticed that the Oilers were all LH shots down the middle, or at least hadn’t registered it as being something that mattered. Weight before that as well. Who was the last RH Oiler centre before York, anyways?
In any case I couldn’t understand why anyone would really give a shit, it seems like such a marginal gain (I still don’t, frankly). But clearly MacTavish does.
Then again, he goes ahead and runs a powerplay for a stretch with no centres last season (which I agreed with btw, just mentioning it because it contradicts his earlier behavior). Go figure.
allan:
The NHL has recorded the location of every faceoff, and who the players involved were, for a lot of years. Measured as the distance (x and y) from centre ice. I think they did publish this breifly, maybe they still do. It’s just something that I’ve ever really taken much of an interest in, personally.
Remember when Brind’amour absolutely cleaned Horc’s clock in G1 back in ‘06 and Horc went nuts and said that The Camel was cheating?
He was cheating. His numbers totally dropped after that. Stupid Joe Camel. Oh, 2006.
Dennis, you really and truly think that those questions have only occurred to people here? No reporter ever considered asking those questions?
Really?
And all it would take for a reporter to ask those questions would be to read here (or on some other blog, this one’s hardly unique in that respect)?
I think most reporters have already considered and rejected those questions.
They’re not responsible to fans, they’re responsible to their editors, which means they can’t piss off their subjects too much or their editors will have no use for them.
If you want to see answers to those questions (and believe me, I want to see them too), I really doubt it’s going to be through mainstream reporters reading blogs.
Well, Mike, it’s gotta come from somewhere. I know there’s a reason why these questions aren’t asked, but it won’t stop me from hoping that someday they will be asked and when you get a guy like Staples in the wheelhouse, then I’m just about begging someone will ask them.
Vic, York came in one of our non-playoff years, which were the evens, ie ‘02 and ‘04. So, he arrived in ‘02.
Dennis, fair enough, I’ll just say (with all good humour) that I think you’re over-reaching in your desperation.
Fair enough, but it’s better to ask someone to ask those questions rather then lay back and criticize someone who’s asking for the questions to be asked;)
Just to be clear, I’m not criticizing the fact that you’re asking them. I’m criticizing the way in which you’re asking them to be asked.
You wrap them in yards of invective and intersperse them with vague and useless comments about the genitalia of celebrities.
If you want any reporter to take your requests seriously, best you lost that bullshit and just laid it out on the line.
Your writing would be much more clear, concise, and adult. To be perfectly frank, you need an editor if you’re serious. Otherwise, you’re very easily dismissed as just another troll in momma’s basement, and the fact that you have some good things to say is a function of throwing enough shit at a wall until something sticks.
I know you have good things to say, so why are you wasting everybody’s time with the rest of that crap?
Yeah, I guess I could’ve came up with some more original material, like say talking about blogging being connected with basement dwelling.
Jesus wept. That was irony, I thought you fancied yourself an expert on it.
Good job responding to the substance of the criticism though.
You’re not going to win your battle as long as you make it easy for people to call you a shit sticker instead of a smart guy.