Watching some of the post-deadline reaction, there was a lot of discussion about how teams had a hard time making deals because they didn’t know what they should be offering due to the effect of the earlier deadline and the salary cap. I have a hard time believing this.
First of all, this season has a pretty clear delineation between the teams who are in the race and the teams who are out of it. For the teams who are out of the race, it seems like a pretty simple calculation to me, particularly when you’re dealing with potential UFA players-get as much as you can, but don’t get caught holding the bag on a guy, particularly if he’s got a big salary. The timing of the deadline-whether it’s 26 days before the end of the season or 40 seems irrelevant to me in peforming this analysis, although the later it is, the better the information you’ll have to make the decision with.
I’ll use Sergei Samsonov as an example here. The Bruins odds of making the playoffs were pretty slim anyway-I have them at 6.9%. For the sake of my example, assume that the only decision they had to make was whether or not retain him. If they decide to retain him, what they’re really doing is making an investment of about $550K (Samsonov’s remaining salary). How much will dealing him cost the Bruins in terms of revenue? It’s almost impossible to say but generally speaking, I’m down with the theory espoused by Billy Beane in Moneyball-winning, not name players, drives revenue. I’d think that this is particularly true in hockey and particularly when you’re dealing with a guy who’s not quite a star in Sergei Samsonov. I doubt that very much, if anything, in the way of regular season revenue is lost by dealing him. Even if it is, the new CBA may almost encourage you to do this by providing protection in the form of revenue sharing against your revenues going completely in the toilet. It’d be nice to see a copy and know for sure.
What about the reduced possibility of playoff revenue? Presumably, removing Sergei Samsonov from the roster reduces the chances of the Bruins making the playoffs. If we treat the impact on the regular season as being revenue neutral or close to it, the real question is how the loss of Samsonov affects their expected playoff profits.
In order to answer this, we need to know what the Bruins expected playoff revenues would be. I’ll make a couple of assumptions here that I think are reasonable and try to be generous to the Bruins. The first is that if they were to make the playoffs, they’d be an eighth place team. The second is that they’d have a 40% chance of winning any playoff game they played. The third is that each home playoff game is worth $2MM in profit and that they would have no expenses (hotels, airplanes, per diems; I’ve got no idea how to ballpark those) from the playoffs. I think that these assumptions are, if anything, very generous to the Bruins.
If you operate with the assumptions I’ve made, you come up with an expected revenue per playoff round of $5.152MM. That’s based on a .424 probability of playing 2 home games at $2MM per and a .576 probability of playing 3 home games at $2MM per. Their probability of making it past any given round is a not very promising .2897. If you run it through, you come up with an expected playoff profit of $7.20MM-if they make the playoffs. Given that I figure their odds of doing that at 6.9%, their expected playoff profit at the deadline was about $497K and this is with what I would guess is very optimistic estimates of their chances of winning a particular playoff game, the money earned from a particular playoff game and the costs involved with making the playoffs. When you consider that they were deciding whether or not to invest $550K in keeping Samsonov, right off the bat it looks like a poor investment. Even if they have to give him away for nothing and doing so would reduce their playoff chances to 0% (neither of which is true), they can expect to come out ahead financially.
This analysis can be made even more precise if you have the ability (which NHL GM’s and scouts theoretically do) to put some sort of value on the muscle in terms of how he changes your expected goals for/goals against; you can then determine how your odds are affected. I’d be shocked if losing Samsonov cost the Bruins THAT much in terms of their chances of making the playoffs; keeping him would likely have been an even worse financial decision than it appears as it’s overwhelmingly unlikely that moving him reduces their expected playoff profit to zero.
This leads to my second point. In addition to the money that teams can save and add to the bottom line, there’s the value of what they can add. I’ve long thought that the price paid for potential UFA by the acquiring team is too high. If you accept my reasoning that continuing to pay players who become UFA’s at the end of the season when you’ve got no reasonable chance of making the playoffs is a poor investment, that means that from a financial perspective for the Bruins, Islanders, Panthers, Capitals, Penguins, Wild, Coyotes, Blackhawks, Blue Jackets and Blues (and probably the Sharks and Maple Leafs), giving away pending UFA’s who were making even a dollar more than the minimum salary (presumably, any replacement called up from the minors would cost the minimum) was more attractive than the alternative. Those teams can expect to come out ahead financially more times than not just by getting rid of the player.
They don’t just get that though-they also get the benefit of whatever assets they can pry lose. I would expect, in a rational player service market, that getting anything more than future considerations at the deadline for a player like Samsonov on a team in the Bruins situation would be driven entirely by the demand side of the equation. Presumably, people like Kevin Lowe and Darryl Sutter could go through the same process I’ve described and come up with some assessment as to how their team’s expected revenues change with the addition of someone like Samsonov. You’d then expect them to be willing to exchange anything up to the point, in revenue terms, that they would be breaking even. Given that it would be pretty easy to figure out the other guy’s situation as well, every GM should have an excellent idea of the minimum needed to offer the other guy a deal on which his team profits. It then comes down to haggling, with the upper hand going to the team that has more palatable alternatives (dealing Roloson to another team for a second rounder vs. dealing for Mika Noronen, for example).
In the case of Kevin Lowe, he needs to consider the impact on the Oilers chances of losing Marty Reasoner and adding Sergei Samsonov has on the Oilers odds of winning/advancing this season. He then needs to consider the impact on future revenues of losing a second round pick and Yan Stastny. This is obviously harder to do-it requires not only a shrewd assessment of Yan Stastny’s potential (which I think is low) but an understanding of the market sufficient to understand the return you can generate from investing the money saved while Stastny is in his RFA years in other players. The same goes for the second round pick-giving it up costs the Oilers a certain percentage chance of having a guy filling a spot cheaply.
I suspect that if I ran a conservative analysis on how the acquisition of Roloson changes things, I’d find that that deal makes sense financially for the Oilers. It obviously made sense for the Wild, even before they take into account the expected return on the first round pick which is just gravy for them. The investment in Roloson is costing the Oilers somewhere in the neighborhood of $367K. A key point here is that it’s a win-win deal. Many commentators try and tag a “winner” label to deals; if my proposed method of analysis is correct, it should be quite common to have deals at the deadline that both teams win and so naming a winner is foolish. The Oilers are hoping that Roloson helps them acquire wins and revenue that will come at the expense of teams other than the Wild (at this point of the season, a win is worth far more to the Oilers than it is to the Wild) while the wins and revenue that the Wild hope to acquire from the first round draft pick in addition to the savings on Roloson will be taken from the league as a whole.
I’m not quite as certain that the Samsonov deal would make sense financially by this analysis (I don’t think he affects the odds nearly as significantly as Roloson, who could be worth somewhere between 0.5 and 0.75 goals per game for the Oilers) but I kind of wonder if that’s a bit of a capital investment for the Oilers, who are known to be sniffing around for a new arena. Edmonton has reacted very positively to the deals and if I’m right that the CBA benefits for the Oilers will dissipate over time, it seems wise to push hard now and be seen to be a highly competitive team for improvements all of a sudden-the windfall from a taxpayer funded or partially funded arena would be huge for EIG.
Ultimately, if you’re just a fan of the team, you probably don’t particularly care about this. When a trade is made, your interest lies solely in whether or not you think your team is better off on the ice (or will be) for making the trade. It’s apparent to me (although I’ve had arguments with smart hockey fans who disagree with me on this point) that there is no such thing as a pure hockey decision at the GM level-every decision has business implications, no matter how small. If a GM lacks the capacity to understand and evaluate them, I don’t see how he can do his job properly.
With that in mind, two general manages stood out for me at the trade deadline, albeit for opposite reasons. Potential invitee to the Atrocious NHL GM Summit Mike Barnett added Oleg Kvasha to the Coyotes for the rest of the season. It’s a lunatic move that can’t possibly have a positive expected financial outcome but one that is typical of the ongoing debacle in Phoenix. On the other side of the coin, Brian Burke did a nice job flipping guys and replacing them with players who were cheaper and/or close to as good. While Sean O’Donnell fills the hole left by Keith Carney, Sandis Ozolinsh was made somewhat redundant by the presence of Scott Niedermayer to eat the PP minutes. Burke can now deploy the $2.75MM that Ozo was slated to earn next season more effectively.
There are some points I haven’t touched on here because I don’t have the right information to do so. The first is the impact on a team’s chances to resign a specific player. The Maple Leafs decision not to trade McCabe is possibly defensible if they instead decide to resign him-if by not trading him, they get an advantage on resigning him, I’d say that they can at least argue this. Whether it’s worth paying him the extra $1MM or so is an open question in my mind. I haven’t touched on the impact on ticket sales the following season either. A team like Atlanta, for example, might get a significant financial boost the following season just from making the playoffs, which would would mean that there are revenue streams from a playoff appearance that I’m failing to consider. I’d suspect that this is a unique occurrence though and that the Thrashers could take a look at the Predators experience (although Bettman’s lockout kind of ruined them as a comparable) as well as the experience of teams like the Mighty Ducks, Lightning and Panthers (expansion teams in non-traditional markets) to at least come up with a rough idea of the revenue involved. There’s probably a similar, but much smaller impact involved in other markets. The impact in Toronto would be zero-I’m not a fan of JFJ’s work on the deadline. Finally, I think that for many owners, they’re willing to accept more risk and potential loss on their hockey franchises than they would be from their real estate ventures. The hockey team has an element of fun, social status and excitement that isn’t captured by an analysis such as this.
To come back to my initial point, none of this analysis would be affected by the imposition of the salary cap or moving the deadline forward. NHL teams will have access to much more precise information on the actual dollars at stake and ideas of the impact of dumping players on deadline day during a lost season. While there are new issues relating to cap management, the question of valuing players and knowing what to offer is still fundamentally an economic one-of all of the options available, which ones provide the team with the greatest expected financial outcomes?
Just reading my comment above, I probably should mention that Cal Nichols made his money building up GasLand, a chain of service stations. Without knowing that, much of my post probably didn’t make sense.
Back to this though. Personally I love this topic, but there’s really not too much to argue with here, MC. I mean most fans prefer to deal in vague, fuzzy terms and ignore any hard thought processes. And the ones that are hardass numbers guys, they usually completely ignore the less quantifiable aspect. but I think you’ve managed to cover it all pretty well here, and in fair balance IMO.
Tom Benjamin, in his blog, makes a good point about the ‘hope for the stretch drive’ aspect. Though that surely is a relatively minor point.
I know I have heard Laforge speak about the importance of the Oilers making the playoffs for ticket sales.
And I suspect that the dicey thing about his job is that losing, for example, 1000 season ticket equivalencies in a summer (most of which would probably be due to poor minipak sales) … it has a snowball effect. I mean as soon as fans know that there will probably be tickets available on game day, or that they can scalp a ticket for close to face value … it all starts to go for a crap. And that’s exactly the way it was when Laforge took over, and was for a year or two afterwards.
But now. Now, even if you don’t want to go to 41 home games … you either have to pay a scalper through the nose, or buy a MiniPak just to be sure you can get into some games in a year. And the 14 game MiniPaks come with a playoff-ticket option which everyone takes of course. Hell that’s the only reason a lot of people go for the 14 gamer.
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On the Oilers, I suspect that Lowe is a pretty sharp guy. And more importantly I think he is smart enough to consult with the other people in the organization on things he doesn’t have expertise in.
Contrast that with Sather. I mean most of the numbers-driven evaluation techniques for players come from the coaching staff. And apparently more and moreso from the draft techies now. And when you look at the guys Sather has hired for those jobs in the past … not exactly people who are going to question his decisions and back it up with facts.
I get the same vibe from Burke (out with Babcock, in with Carlisle! Hrrrmm.)
And because Cal Nichols, even though he often looks like a village idiot in interviews, is a shrewd guy, and he didn’t think that Sather was a good businessman, and he thinks that Lowe and Laforge are. That says something too methinks.
Sather’s big decision every day was who he and Bruce MacGregor were going to take to lunch.
I will never forgive him (or the fanbase) for making “we’re just lucky to have a team” the mantra for a decade.
Jesus Christ, the Arizona Cardinals aim higher.
Agree on the Burke thing, he basically did what he said he’d do free up money and acquired talent as available) the day he took the job. Burke’s arrogant but not without brains.
I’d be interested in anyone helping me look at the Phoenix trade deadline thought process.
mc, do you think NHL GMs think along these lines? Not trying to be cute here, I just haven’t read anything indicating this sort of thought process.
mc, do you think NHL GMs think along these lines? Not trying to be cute here, I just haven’t read anything indicating this sort of thought process.
Out of curiosity LT, does this approach make sense to you?
To answer your question, some of them probably do. Guys with educational backgrounds similar to my own (commerce/law), I’d imagine that they do, although it’s probably more complex analytically than what I’ve suggested. Guys like Burke and Feaster leap out at me in that regard (although I still think that Burke is lousy at contract time). Nonis might be another one who works that way too. It’s the systemic approach to this sort of thing that I like.
The majority of guys probably operate based on their gut sense of things. For those with accurate guts (Sutter and Lowe) it’s not such a bad thing. The problem I have with that style though is that it can really lead you down a garden path if you don’t have some sort of concrete framework with which to evaluate things. A guy like Slats is a case in point-he did well in Edmonton through the ’80’s, but you’ve got to wonder if they ever really understood why their picks did well or whether or not they were using their money wisely. He goes to the Rangers, spends like crazy and gets bombed. This year, they figure to be rebuilding and the team is good. Does Slats know why? If he doesn’t, wouldn’t you be a bit worried if you were MSG? How do you have faith that he can replicate his success in the future?
Mudcrutch said:
Out of curiousity LT, does this approach make sense to you?
Yes, and more specifically your second point is extremely strong imo and speaks to those who did nothing in that position (McCabe example aside).
Phoenix is a team that I would very much like to have a long look at (I honestly felt they’d trade Comrie and maybe they tried but if you’re dealing Lundmark why in hell did you trade for him in the first place? Why not call up some AHL veteran for the 30 games).
I think this thinking will become more commonplace in the next couple of years, but NHL wisdom is based on the school of hard knocks and some of the men in GM jobs won’t know what hit them.
Mudcrutch,
Love your site, I was just wondering if you could tell me where you get your stats? That relative save% stat you brought up is really interresting.
Also, would you happen to know of a site which tracks the change in save % after every game a goalie plays. I think it’s what you used in your Cujo graph.
Thanks
Phil
I think this is the right sort of analysis, but we shouldn’t be so quick to disregard some intangible factors.
The likelihood that a potential UFA re-signs, for example, could have a large impact. If Roloson, having been dealt to the Oilers, now becomes 75% likely to sign a deal with Edmonton and solve its goaltending woes, has Minnesota really served its interests?
Also, playoff revenue is calculable, but the intangibles vary from team to team. Atlanta may view the playoffs as a windfall, whereas a team like Colorado or Detroit might consider them more of a necessity. It’s not purely gate-driven, at least not for all teams.
Loyalty, chemistry, and injury risk are some other considerations that may skew the math, also. Some factors are more quantifiable than others, but I can see where it might be difficult to figure initially a player’s market value.
Terrific post mudcrutch.
I doubt that I have read a better post of this type on the internet before. Which makes it kind of daunting to reply, because a guy feels that he should make the same effort in response (and I’m lazy
)
I’ll chip away at it in bits, if that’s okay with you.
To start: From Kevin Lowe’s POV, he is a general manager, he has people to assist him with business calcs. Any CFO should be able to do most of this sort of thing easily. The value of a player to your team, in terms of winning, that’s the only unique aspect to this industry. And the impact of making the playoffs and similar fuzzier issues … it’s part of Laforge’s job to peg a quantitative value to these things.
I wasn’t much of a Sather fan. And I remember a snide remark he made through the media (via Jones by my memory) about “this is the NHL, it’s not like running a gas station
“
Personally, as a fan, that was the last straw for me with Sather. Because Glen, actually it is. Business is business. Nichol does have a terribly low TVQ, but his BusinessIQ is tough to question.
We all have our own internal biases, and I’m sure that Lowe has his. And I’m sure that you have yours … otherwise why admire Burke, who is Sather West for Chrissakes.
Love your site, I was just wondering if you could tell me where you get your stats? That relative save% stat you brought up is really interresting.
Also, would you happen to know of a site which tracks the change in save % after every game a goalie plays. I think it’s what you used in your Cujo graph.
The relative save percentage stat is one that I came up with on my own. I’m a baseball fan and it’s a common way of looking at pitchers there (ERA+, they call their version). With the way that the NHL has swung in terms of save percentage (moving from an average of .880 to an average of .911 and now to .897) over the years, I find this to be a useful stat in terms of comparing players.
As for your second question, it’s again a home grown effort. I’ve got a database of all the shots taken this year with labels as to who was in net, when it was taken etc. It’s a simple matter to pull out and graph a specific guy-if you’ve got the data readily available.
I doubt that I have read a better post of this type on the internet before.
I know you’re not much of a baseball fan, but Baseball Prospectus runs a similar analysis occasionally on big trades. They come at it a fair bit differently (and in a more sophisticated manner) but I’ve lifted the idea from them.
To start: From Kevin Lowe’s POV, he is a general manager, he has people to assist him with business calcs. Any CFO should be able to do most of this sort of thing easily. The value of a player to your team, in terms of winning, that’s the only unique aspect to this industry. And the impact of making the playoffs and similar fuzzier issues … it’s part of Laforge’s job to peg a quantitative value to these things.
Still though, that kind of requires Lowe/Laforge to come up with a common language to discuss this. If Lowe is saying “He makes us better in net” and Laforge is saying “Every playoff game is worth $1.5MM, we have a 70% chance of making the playoffs right now…” they aren’t speaking the same language.
I think that this is why we hear talk of budgets and teams saying that they’ve still got money in their player budget. If you start to look at it as an investment, it makes more sense. Say that the Caps had money left in the player budget-it still makes no sense for them to spend it. Lowe has actually phrased things a bit differently-IIRC, he talks about ownership being willing to spend on the right player. Maybe they’ve got it worked out; lots of teams don’t.
And I’m sure that you have yours … otherwise why admire Burke, who is Sather West for Chrissakes.
I thought he had a nice deadline day; I’m with you on his contracts, generally speaking.