• Dave Nonis And Analytics

    by  • November 11, 2013 • Hockey • 23 Comments

    Dave Nonis appeared on a panel today that talked about hockey analytics. For reasons I’ll never understand, they never really have a coherent advocate of hockey analytics on these panels – at most, you get some sort of a nebbish character who’s intimidated by hockey people. At worst, you get a guy who knows less than nothing about the topic on the panel, saying things that mean nothing. The result tends to be pretty useless to a listener, I think – you don’t get a discussion about the insights that can be drawn from and flaws of hockey analytics, you get silly criticisms leavened with ignorance.

    One point in particular that Nonis made jumped out at me.

    The first people who will tell you that the NHL’ s data collection isn’t perfect are people who’ve done a lot with the data. If someone tells you that it is, you should run away from that person. That being said, the question isn’t whether it’s perfect, the question is whether it’s good enough that you can derive insights from it.

    I’m going to suggest something about data quality and you can decide for yourself whether it’s a test that makes sense. If data collection in the NHL rises to a level that’s good enough for us to use it to draw insights from, we’ll see a relationship between home statistics and road statistics. That is to say, if the scorers are good enough at their job, knowing that someone is good at home will tell me something about whether he’ll be good on the road, despite there being one set of scorers for home games and 29 different sets for road games.

    To test whether this is true, I went back to the NHL’s last full season (2011-12) and gathered the home and road Corsis for the 299 forwards who played at least 300 minutes in each situation. Then I created a graph of those Corsis.

    Screen Shot 2013-11-11 at 7.54.23 PM

    See how it kind of looks like a line that goes up? As the home Corsi% increases, the road Corsi% tends to increase. Players who are good at Corsi% at home tend to be good on the road. If the scoring was as bad as people who coincidentally happen to be anti-data would have you believe, that would not be the case. You’d see a cloud, or a much less strong relationship.

    Keep in mind, not all of the differences we see in home vs. road Corsi% are going to be due to scorer error. The year that I chose was RNH’s rookie season. He had a 51.5% Corsi% at home against 45.4% on the road. That’s not unexpected – Tom Renney was sheltering him like crazy at home.

    That being said, the relationship between the two numbers is, for most players, really strong. Good players tend to post good numbers, home and away. Bad players tend to post bad numbers, home and away. You get the sense, listening to a lot of people like Nonis talk, that they’ve never actually sit down to investigate how good the data quality is. As a result, they don’t actually have any idea if the quality of the data is good enough to use it to inform decisions.

    This whole thing is a bit of a red herring dodge anyway. If your objection is premised on data quality, an organization like the Maple Leafs could easily afford to spend $200 a game or something to have all games properly recorded in India. It’s peanuts. Nonis mentioned that the Leafs have a large analytics budget which is unspent which just seems like madness to me – what they should be doing is using that budget to create extremely high quality data and then using good data analysts to break it down and look for insights.

    One other point that stuck out:

    Dave Nonis bought out Mike Komisarek this summer. An analytically inclined writer who went back and looked at Komisarek in Montreal and Komisarek in Toronto had this to say:

    Komisarek’s Toronto numbers are skewed a little bit by his 2009-10 season, when he played almost exclusively with Tomas Kaberle and posted an open play Corsi% of 57.2%. His SAF/100 was a fine 151.2 and his SAA/100 a fine 137.7. His ratio of shifts with at least one SAF to shifts with at least 1 SAA was a fantastic 1.22. If you knock that season out, his time in Toronto is virtually identical to his time in Montreal. You have to wonder: why was he such a bust in Toronto? What did the Leafs think that they were going to get?

    The Habs shot 9.05% with Komisarek on-ice during his final two years in Montreal. They got a save percentage of 0.926. In Toronto, those numbers were 7.78% and .903. From a PDO of 1017 to 981. PDO’s a hell of a drug. And expensive too. In his final two years in Montreal, Komisarek was on the ice for 95 GF and 90 GA at 5v5; in Toronto it was an abysmal 75 GF and 102 GA. The on-ice save percentage was an absolute nightmare in his last real full season in Toronto – .883. Nobody’s going to look good with that. I suppose you could argue that Komisarek somehow got worse and made it possible for people to take high quality shots but the Leafs had a 46.0% open play Corsi% with him on the ice in 2011-12, as opposed to a 47.0% open play Corsi% in Montreal in the year leading up the Leafs signing him.

    One plausible explanation for Komisarek’s time in Toronto might be that he was pretty much the same as he always was and that what Toronto paid for – PDO – is something that you can’t really buy. Frankly, that seems like a more reasonable explanation to me than “Komisarek was awesome in Montreal and then came to Toronto and was terrible.” The implications though…well, the implications are big. If that’s right, then there are probably a chunk of teams across the NHL paying players for luck and the performance of others and then muttering about the player’s character now that he’s gotten paid when the luck and hard work of others doesn’t move with him.

    An organization with massive resources could afford to sink a million bucks into generating the kind of data that would allow them to know pretty conclusively whether Komisarek actually got a lot worse in Toronto or whether the decision to sign him was botched. But then, the people running such an organization might have a vested interest in not seeing better data generated.

    One more.

    I’m not sure WHY people in hockey seem to expect that a statistic will provide them with a silver bullet but that seems to be another ground for rejecting the use of analytics. The 2009-10 Maple Leafs had a power play that generated fewer than 4 GF/60, which is abhorrent, an .851 save percentage on the PK, which is brutal and a .911 save percentage at 5v5 which, say it with me, sucks. The only thing that team had going for it was an ability to outshoot the opposition, which is why the Bruins got Tyler Seguin instead of Taylor Hall. If I was Dave Nonis, looking at that trainwreck, my conclusion wouldn’t have been “Corsi’s useless because ours was OK and we were bad.” It would have been “We’ve got some discrete areas in which we’re horrible.”

    I assume that the Leafs try and break down what they’re weak at. This necessarily involves identifying which part of the game you are good at and which parts you are poor at. You can tell that they get this on some level because they bought out Mikhail Grabovski last summer. Rightly or wrongly (wrongly), they concluded that this would make them better. They obviously get the concept of trying to identify specific areas of weakness and improve them. It’s baffling that they can’t seem to wrap their heads around the fact that this measures a discrete and important part of the game that isn’t the entire game.

    If you can think that way though, get beyond “Team good!” or “Team bad! – and I have no doubt that the Leafs can – then there’s no excuse for saying things like “Well our Corsi was good and we sucked so Corsi’s useless.” None. Unless you’re trying to dismiss something that you don’t really understand.

    Email Tyler Dellow at tyler@mc79hockey.com

    About

    23 Responses to Dave Nonis And Analytics

    1. David Supina
      November 11, 2013 at

      So Leafs management doesn’t think through hockey analysis very thoroughly. Shocking. Truly shocking.

      There seems to be this weird culture in hockey that seems to feel threatened by analytics. I think it has something to do with a lot of managers taking a great deal in their ability to assess with their eyes, and feeling threatened that there might be something as dispassionate as a number to disagree with them. So they attack the validity of those numbers. At least, that’s what I guess is going wrong.

      Or you could view it as a tool, with a level of usefulness that can also be analyzed, that may help you win, and is therefore worth using, which is a far less foolish approach to running a multi-million dollar business that’s success is tied somewhat to the playing of a zero-sum game (Bettman points aside).

      • Jerry Seinfeld
        November 21, 2013 at

        Analytics are self fulfilling; you don’t win because your analytics are good, your analytics are good because you’re winning.

    2. Mike
      November 12, 2013 at

      It’s hard to comprehend how a team that has floundered for so long, like the Leafs, would not be open to looking at new ways of evaluating players, or at least would not be so stubborn.

      It’s frustrating, but then the teams that first bought into advanced stats in baseball were not the big market teams, but the teams with a tight budget that needed to find a different path to success. The Leafs are the Yankees of the NHL (obviously in spending habits and not by record of success) and so I’m not expecting them to look at a problem and not try to hammer it with money. It’s going to be a different franchise that finds success through analytics, not the Leafs.

      • Colin (@SkinnyPPPhish)
        November 12, 2013 at

        It’s simple really; the made the playoffs. That alone justifies everything they’ve done and are doing. Do you think they’ve looked into the reasons for reaching the postseason; goaltending and an absurd shooting percentage? Of course not because they went right out and got another goalie and jettisoned badluck forwards for goodluck forwards.

      • Bruce McCurdy
        November 12, 2013 at

        “The Leafs are the Yankees of the NHL”

        The Leafs are the Mets of the NHL.

        • Mike
          November 12, 2013 at

          Clever snarkery, but I addressed the success question in the op, and let’s face it, the Leafs have the same record of futilely signing big money veterans that the Yankees have often followed.

          The Mets right now are more akin to a smaller market team like the Panthers, Jets, or Flames — smaller budget, with minor leaguers and a few big names sprinkled in.

    3. ron
      November 12, 2013 at

      I am going to dismiss this opportunity to gain a competitive advantage because this stat doesn’t tell me absolutely everything i need to know – idiots.

    4. chris
      November 12, 2013 at

      If the Leafs play in the ACC, don’t they have access to the Sports VU system that the Raptors use? I wonder if they’ve started looking into that at all. Seems like a tool that could be very beneficial to them. http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9068903/the-toronto-raptors-sportvu-cameras-nba-analytical-revolution

    5. Pete
      November 12, 2013 at

      What is all the fuss about? Analytics at the level you are talking about is still unproven: it problematically assumes that there is an underlying rationality that lie underneath the elements, laws and processes of a game (which is wrong) and and does not account for unpredictability. Plus, you are not taking into account your own ontological and epistemological biases while interpreting the data.

      The Leafs should invest $1m to study this? Isn’t this blog post more about the fact that you think that the Leafs should hire you to do this?

      It’s unproven, hence, very little return on investment.

      • Tyler Dellow
        November 12, 2013 at

        Ontological AND epistemological? Someone’s an undergrad!

      • Peachy
        November 12, 2013 at

        My favorite bit is “an underlying rationality that lie underneath”.

        An attempt at satire?

    6. Russ
      November 12, 2013 at

      Just curious here (having followed @Mirtle for a while now, I’m intrigued by analytics, but not entirely sold): analytics burst on to the pro sports scene through their successful use in MLB with the Oakland Athletics, which essentially PROVED their value in baseball – now all MLB teams have analytics budgets they employ extensively; if such an analogue exists for hockey (Corsi, say), why has the same phenomenon not been seen in the NHL? Or has it?

    7. February 19, 2014 at

      You’re less likely to forgo them for a long time normally drop fitness never sleeps their curiosity in sports actions.
      By simply dancing to the rhythms ofsalsa, samba, and more are up and coming.
      The main thing with home fitness is the fact that you are no longer seeing results and feel like the workout is too easy it’s definitely
      time to switch it up.

    8. March 6, 2014 at

      I don’t even know how I ended up here, but I thought this
      post was great. I don’t kno who you are but certainly you aare going to a famous blogger if you are not alrready ;) Cheers!

    9. March 8, 2014 at

      A person necessarily lend a hand to make critically posts I would state.

      This is the first time I frequented your website page and
      thus far? I amazed with the analysis you made to create this actual publish amazing.
      Wonderful process!

    10. March 13, 2014 at

      Hey there would you mind sharing which blog platform you’re working with?
      I’m planning to start my own blog soon but I’m having a tough time making a decision between BlogEngine/Wordpress/B2evolution and Drupal.

      The reason I ask is because your design and style seems different then most
      blogs and I’m looking for something unique. P.S Sorry for getting off-topic but I had to
      ask!

    11. April 24, 2014 at

      Hello, after reading this awesome post i am as well cheerful to share my know-how here with friends.

      • May 7, 2014 at

        This is one Leaf fan that is gunning for a beettr draft position than making the playoffs. Yes, heresy indeed, revoke my fan club membership, my public stoning at Yonge & Dundas Square, etc, etc, etc…I don’t care what anyone else thinks, this “charade” has gone on for too many years already, this team needs to rebuild with youth and draft picks and it needs to do it NOW! Anyone else still clinging to making the playoffs and then pulling a Cinderella is smoking the same crap that Simmons is…

    12. April 30, 2014 at

      Today, while I was at work, myy sister stole my iPad and tested to see if it
      can survive a twenty five foot drop, just soo
      she ccan be a youtube sensation. My iPad is now destroyed
      and she has 83 views. I know thjs iss entirely off topic but
      I had to share it with someone!

    13. chelch
      May 2, 2014 at

      There’s no way Nonis doesn’t understand or use advanced stats. Ron Wilson brought this to Toronto long before the truculence train rolled in. BUT HE CAN’T ADMIT IT. The NHL is an old boy’s club. Nonis is a young guy trying to fit in, and he is doing a helluva job.

      They said Shanny spent the plane ride to Toronto reading up on Corsi%. He didn’t do that for any other reason than to sorta understand what the hell Nonis was talking about.

      Do yourself a favour and stop listening to what the Leafs’ brass spew to the media. Ron Wilson, Brian Burke, and now Nonis and crew, are TOP DOGS when it comes to using the media. It’s their biggest advantage in Toronto.

    14. June 10, 2014 at

      What Is cheap Steelers jerseys from china

    15. July 25, 2014 at

      Fantastic blog! Do you have any tips and hints for
      aspiring writers? I’m planning to start my own website soon but I’m a little lost
      on everything. Would you propose starting with a free platform like
      Wordpress or go for a paid option? There are so many options out there that I’m
      totally confused .. Any suggestions? Bless you!

    Leave a Reply

    Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *